I agree to a point, but think we must also consider the vast majority of civilian encounters occur at extremely close distances(usually 3 yards or under). I just can't see there being much of a difference in putting a couple of rounds on target quickly at those distances for most people. And a gunfight is not the only situation that needs to be addressed. I think it perhaps more likely the armed civilian will have to defend against assailants not armed with firearms, but with knives, makeshift impact weapons, multiple unarmed attackers etc. and in those scenarios and with ECQ in general, I think a revolver has certain strengths, especially in terms of getting off that critical first shot.
Revolver vs semi auto for CCW
- Thread starter ClayCow
- Start date
I agree to a point, but think we must also consider the vast majority of civilian encounters occur at extremely close distances(usually 3 yards or under). I just can't see there being much of a difference in putting a couple of rounds on target quickly at those distances for most people. And a gunfight is not the only situation that needs to be addressed. I think it perhaps more likely the armed civilian will have to defend against assailants not armed with firearms, but with knives, makeshift impact weapons, multiple unarmed attackers etc. and in those scenarios and with ECQ in general, I think a revolver has certain strengths, especially in terms of getting off that critical first shot.
keithherrington
Member
My carry gun...
A 7-shot L-Comp. Have carried autos and revolvers both, but as I get older (and maybe a bit wiser) I gravitate more and more towards wheel guns for carry. The K-Comp and the 357 Carry Gun are when minimal profile is called for.
And this one allows me to practice ( a lot) with lead 38 Specials and save the comp guns for a small diet of jacketed.
Revolver work, and here I'm talking only double action, takes work and constant practice. It is a perishable skill.
Keith
A 7-shot L-Comp. Have carried autos and revolvers both, but as I get older (and maybe a bit wiser) I gravitate more and more towards wheel guns for carry. The K-Comp and the 357 Carry Gun are when minimal profile is called for.
And this one allows me to practice ( a lot) with lead 38 Specials and save the comp guns for a small diet of jacketed.
Revolver work, and here I'm talking only double action, takes work and constant practice. It is a perishable skill.
Keith
He never stated a distance? But also I think it goes to fundamentals. If you can put rounds on a target further away than what you expect, you should be able to do it closer. I think rastoff was saying that its important to find the gun where you can hit where youre aiming.
But why do you think a revolver is better at getting critical first shots off?
Rick_A
Member
If you like them and shoot them well, carry what you're comfortable with.
At one point my wheel guns were sold as I had little use for them and I could shoot the autos better and with less effort. One day out of the blue I found I could shoot a snubby pretty well with little effort. The autos I carry have eight round capacities so having a bunch of bullets on hand is not a priority.
The autos are fine when dressed for it but for discreet carry/backup use its always going to be a revolver.
At one point my wheel guns were sold as I had little use for them and I could shoot the autos better and with less effort. One day out of the blue I found I could shoot a snubby pretty well with little effort. The autos I carry have eight round capacities so having a bunch of bullets on hand is not a priority.
The autos are fine when dressed for it but for discreet carry/backup use its always going to be a revolver.
Professor Frink
Member
Sir,
If it helps at all, my EDC is one of those Buds Ex-Australian, 4" round-butt model 10s. I practice regularly (easy to practice when its a fun thing to do), and feel very confident with it.
If it helps at all, my EDC is one of those Buds Ex-Australian, 4" round-butt model 10s. I practice regularly (easy to practice when its a fun thing to do), and feel very confident with it.
Many people that have the view of armed self-defense in the context of shooting at the range, usually because that is the only training they have ever done with a firearm. They more often than not have an exception that there will be a certain degree of distance or separation, but stats show that is usually not case in civilian encounters and in ECQ/extreme close-quarter situations, the slide of the semi-auto will often be fouled(pushed out if battery) or the gun will jam and a second shot will not be possible. Clearing a jam is usually not a realistic possibility when you're in a clinch or ground entanglement, especially if the assailant is armed with any type of weapon.
ABPOS
Member
I totally disagree when you say the slide will often be fouled. There have been many people that have defended themselves with autos. I'm not saying it's not a consideration, I'm saying it appears to me you are overstating facts. Like it happens regularly. I'm really skeptical about it. And I've actually never read an account of it happening in a self defense situation.
With that said, I carry a 442 every day. But I do not have a problem with someone who carries an auto. All of my autos are full sized at present and I only carry them when I have the right clothes to do it. I think both platforms have their upsides and downsides.
I have also wondered why anyone would choose a 6 + 1 autoloader over a revolver. The big thing for me is that a snubby revolver is what I would want in a CQB situation. It has no slide to impinge or push out of battery, no magazine release to accidently activate, no ejection port to foul, and retention is about as good as it gets. If a threat does manage to get his hand on a revolver tight enough to bind the cylinder, all the defender has to do is rotate the gun sharply clockwise (on an S&W) while pressing the trigger, and the cylinder will turn. A shrouded or concealed-hammer snub-nose revolver is about the ultimate in tamper-proof CQB guns. Of course, your priorities and resultant strategies may be different.
Yup. Many people use the range as their indicator. I sure do, I mean I dontcare to go through every single possibility (yea judge me people). But as for slide being pushed out of battery, how would this happen? I imagine a struggle on thr ground, you pull out your gun and shoot at the guy.
It's grabbed or simply makes contact with you or the assailants body. Grappling entanglements and ground encounters can be very chaotic and messy. It's relatively easy to foul the first shot or for the gun to jam after it. I think it perhaps hard to understand unless you've participated in contact force on force training. People generally underestimate how quickly someone can close in on them as well as overestimate the effects their shots will have. Look at the video footage of the petite female news reporter shot several times at point blank range. She was still able to run away. Now imagine an enraged 200 lb knife-wielding assailant closing on you on from 5 feet. Will you be able to draw, shoot and stop him? What about even if you get off the X/incorporate movement? These scenarios are not improbable, they are the norm.
Here's some FoF ECQ training to get the idea. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nxJMFVBMFwc
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Well the 200lb knife wielding guy point is moot. Revolver or semi you cant draw in time.
Ive never participated in contact force on force but I feel like the gun being unable to fire is more like a thing out of the movies where someone uses their hand to stop a sword from stabbing them.
I saw a youtube video where someone shot a glock wrapped in rubberbands. I dont think someone could keep the slide from firing. I could see the follow up shot being jammed if that did happen. Which would require a rerack that may or may not be possible which i see how the revolver would shine
What do you mean by makes contact with assailants body? Like what type of contact?
Ive never participated in contact force on force but I feel like the gun being unable to fire is more like a thing out of the movies where someone uses their hand to stop a sword from stabbing them.
I saw a youtube video where someone shot a glock wrapped in rubberbands. I dont think someone could keep the slide from firing. I could see the follow up shot being jammed if that did happen. Which would require a rerack that may or may not be possible which i see how the revolver would shine
What do you mean by makes contact with assailants body? Like what type of contact?
You never know what will happen. You could brush by someone on a busy street and have all hell brake loose on YOU . How you handle it may depend on how you handle a real deal fight growing up . If your lucky you can step aside and sweep a BG aside using your weak hand and arm and step back a half step with your strong side leg so you could draw and shoot with your pistol close to your body . And if a BG gets his hands on you handgun be it a pistol or revolver and grabs it the revolver guy has ZERO chance to fire it if the cylinder is grabbed . With a pistol you may be able to shot once if not out of battery so not sure why you why a revolver is any better??!! So snubby guys could be poo out of luck too .
All you can do is practice and hope if ever needed to draw your handgun AND use it and get it all right and survive !
Finding a place to practice is not something many private ranges allow unless its part of a scheduled training class , $$$ . So you ether do it at home or at a friends property or at a uncontrolled public ranges like a forestry range .
But if that's not practical for you buy an airsoft and practice at home .
I'm lucky I can shoot at home .
But if some guy jumps me out of the clear blue and I don't pick upon it and find my self in a up close and personal physical disagreement I'm not going to be worry'n about a handgun as I could shoot myself or some one near by but its possible that my knife will be coming into action . Its been known to calm down tense and stressful moment in years gone by and I'm to darn old and broken down to roll around on the ground with some one .
Nothings sure fire and if you have never been a a good ole hand to hand before to know how you can handle your self and ended up rolled around in a parking lot with some one who knows what will happen to a hand to hand cherry . Probably end up in the hospital .
All you can do is practice and hope if ever needed to draw your handgun AND use it and get it all right and survive !
Finding a place to practice is not something many private ranges allow unless its part of a scheduled training class , $$$ . So you ether do it at home or at a friends property or at a uncontrolled public ranges like a forestry range .
But if that's not practical for you buy an airsoft and practice at home .
I'm lucky I can shoot at home .
But if some guy jumps me out of the clear blue and I don't pick upon it and find my self in a up close and personal physical disagreement I'm not going to be worry'n about a handgun as I could shoot myself or some one near by but its possible that my knife will be coming into action . Its been known to calm down tense and stressful moment in years gone by and I'm to darn old and broken down to roll around on the ground with some one .
Nothings sure fire and if you have never been a a good ole hand to hand before to know how you can handle your self and ended up rolled around in a parking lot with some one who knows what will happen to a hand to hand cherry . Probably end up in the hospital .
The video I provided shows how these things can happen in a ground scenario. A semi-auto will fire once if you hold onto the slide(in a relatively controlled manner) and prevent it from cycling. However, it will not fire out of battery such as if you pushed the muzzle into the assailant body or he simply came down on it(such as from a mounted position) or he simply crashes his body into you as you try to draw. It is also likely if the assailant has ahold of the muzzle or you are otherwise struggling for control over the weapon that it will be forced out of battery. If you are firing from retention during a CQ struggle, it's also possible for the slide to make contact with part of your body during it's rearward movement and cause it to jam. These are not some hypothetical or far fetched movie ideas. Just about every reputable CQ instructor will cover this materiel. It's really pretty standard stuff.
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dubshooter
Member
It's quite easy to keep the slide from cycling. All you need is a thumb. We did this in the academy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r4XpFYCaIo
As far as types of contacts, there's a video of officer struggling with suspect, suspect gets gun away from officer. When K9 attempts to apprehend suspect, he pistol whips the dog. Muzzle of the gun hits the ground with just enough force to knock it out of battery. Saved the cops life and allowed him to draw secondary.
Another thing to consider with semi autos is the mag being released, whether in a struggle, or while in a pocket.
I believe that happened to George Zimmerman. But I haven't been able to find the source where I read that.
I had a buddy at work get into a fight with a suspect. They ended up on the ground, and suspect began to flee. We caught him. Upon returning to the vehicle, I found a Glock mag on the ground. We search suspect again thinking we might have missed the gun. Nothing. Went back and retraced his steps to see where he ditched the gun. Nothing.
Turns out, when my partner fell, his holster flexed from his weight and the mag released was pushed in and his mag fell out.
I do carry a semi auto at times. But I prefer my revolvers.
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Cylinders are round, metal, and rather slick. Maybe if you're going to try that aikido business, maybe go for blocking the hammer
That's true, but it's extremely difficult to maintain such a grip on a snub revolver for any duration in an all out struggle over the weapon. The semi-auto will often fire even if barrel is grabbed providing it's not pushed out of battery(although it will return to being in battery once it's freed up), but then you're jammed. With the snub, there's no such issue.
I think we all love this debate. The corollary to the above is if you press an automatic's barrel against someone it won't cycle. A revolver will fire every time.
More importantly, if someone grab your revolver's cylinder you made some tactical errors from the outset. That's a whole other discussion.
The key is concealment. A little J-frame disappears in your pocket. Not too many pistols in what we call "defensive" calibers can match that but there are some, such as SIG's P238, P938, and a couple of others. Beretta's currently out of production, tip-up barreled pistols in "mouse calibers" can make the same pocket disappearance claim. If the Kahrs can do that, or the S&W Shields, I don't know because I haven't handled them - yet.
If you have a tucked in shirt whilst wearing shorts, slacks, or jeans you either carry a gun in your pocket or get one of those "tuckable" holsters - I never have tried one of those. But pocket carry is where it's at when dressed casually like that. It all changes when vets, coats, and sweaters are worn.
There are other considerations as well. Long, safe, double action trigger pulls are preferable to some folks versus single action pistols or modern, Glock-style "tricky" triggers. Traditional double action pistols are another choice but not as commonly founds as they used to be.
Skill with your weapon of choice is also a serious consideration but even variable skills are largely offset by the fact that most of the time you're up close and personal when you need your defensive handgun.
It's all a compromise. Handguns are, and always have been, a compromise. If you knew you were going to a gunfight, I mean KNEW, you might not even take a handgun, or you'd take it as backup.
Of course you have... George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin. I'm basing my comments on the stats I'm aware of for civilian encounters(primarily distances involved) although there is no national database keeping records of such things and discussing and working on these issues with PD's and LEO's I've trained for the past 3 decades. They of course are involved in a lot of actual incidents themselves as well as responding to and investigating ones involving private citizens and we spend a lot of time analyzing and ways to better prepare. There are countless caught on camera videos on youtube of armed encounters that quickly closed to grappling entanglements and ground battles over control of a firearm. Am I overstating? If so, it would only be because it's a vital area of self-defense that so many "gun guys" completely ignore.
SilentKnight
Member
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The answer is always... it depends.
What do you shoot well? What firearm are you confident with? What kind of clothing are you going to wear? Cold weather? Hot weather? Are you willing to change your wardrobe to carry the one weapon you choose? Do you have the rig (holster and at least one reload) to support the firearm comfortably for hours on end? Can you sit, stand, bend and do normal functions without printing your firearm? Is concealment more important than big bore?
I carry whatever seems appropriate for the purpose. I have multiple choices of calibers and platforms (revolver or semi) and am proficient with both.
If traveling through a known danger zone I might dress for concealing something bigger bore and carry something with higher capacity. If traveling to the desert and sweating, I might opt for a stainless firearm that is small and can be carried concealed under a T-shirt.
It depends... be proficient with the firearm you choose and learn to carry it in a rig that best suits your circumstances.
There is an old saying... beware of the man with one gun... he is probably very proficient with it.
What do you shoot well? What firearm are you confident with? What kind of clothing are you going to wear? Cold weather? Hot weather? Are you willing to change your wardrobe to carry the one weapon you choose? Do you have the rig (holster and at least one reload) to support the firearm comfortably for hours on end? Can you sit, stand, bend and do normal functions without printing your firearm? Is concealment more important than big bore?
I carry whatever seems appropriate for the purpose. I have multiple choices of calibers and platforms (revolver or semi) and am proficient with both.
If traveling through a known danger zone I might dress for concealing something bigger bore and carry something with higher capacity. If traveling to the desert and sweating, I might opt for a stainless firearm that is small and can be carried concealed under a T-shirt.
It depends... be proficient with the firearm you choose and learn to carry it in a rig that best suits your circumstances.
There is an old saying... beware of the man with one gun... he is probably very proficient with it.
