Robbery Scenario: What to do?

[drmweaver2]

Seems that this is somewhat appropo time and subject-wise
Terrifying Video Shows Bullets Flying During Attempted Robbery at Houston Store [Video]

 

[RSanch111]

I would just say that if you shoot someone, hopefully justified, it is going to shake your world and change your life forever.
Even if justified, it will change your life, especially if you take someone's life. It bothers most sane people to do that.

I disagree. I was quite satisfied when I shot the guy who was going to kill me. None of the other cops I know have had any "life changing" or "world-shaking" experiences in the aftermath either. Who comes up with this stuff? Was there a survey or study done? If the shooting was NOT justified, the aftermath can obviously be life-changing.

 

[AimHigher]

If it were me, I'd back away and get behind some cover -- away from any other person. Then I'd be a good witness. If the robber leaves without harming anyone, good. Give the description to the cops. If the robber escalates the incident and shoots the store clerk or advances in my direction, then I'd challenge the robber and order him to freeze, drop the gun etc. If the robber doesn't comply or leave the store, I'd probably kill him. You need to be aware for the possibility of accomplices already inside the store or waiting outside and/or the robber is willing to take a life without giving it a second thought. So, best to remain ready, behind cover and away from other people. If the robber calls me out, I'll tell him to F-off. This puts the robber off his game to a certain extent and places the robber at a decision point. He either needs to leave, or deal with the lunatic hiding behind the end-cap at isle 3, who doesn't seem to be afraid.

 

[AimHigher]

I agree 100%! My CCH instructor told our class that no matter what the case may be, shooting and possibly killing another human being will haunt you. Maybe for the rest of your life! He said that he's had fellow officers to struggle with having to shoot someone, and that's part of their job & training!

I think the only way a sane person could do it is to realize that he/she or someone else is gonna die, if the trigger isn't pulled. It would have to be a quick (hopefully) survival instinct.

That's why I would encourage the robber to leave. The ball is squarely in his court.

 

[RSanch111]

If the robber calls me out, I'll tell him to F-off. This puts the robber off his game to a certain extent and places the robber at a decision point. He either needs to leave, or deal with the lunatic hiding behind the end-cap at isle 3, who doesn't seem to be afraid.

Like Tucco said: "When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk." A pistol battle is no time for conversation. Telling a real bad guy to "f-off" is likely to provoke a violent reaction. Not a rational decision-making process. Same thing as "disrespecting" someone on the street or in prison. Good way to get killed. Chances are, you're not going to drop him with one or two or three shots unless you get him in the brain or spine. And a head shot with a pistol is no guarantee of a hit to the brain. Keep that in mind. Chances are, LOTS of shots are going to be fired....back and forth.... once it gets to that point if you're dealing with a real bad man. Just some amateur armed robber? Maybe that would be different. I'm not going to bother trying to find out which is which, especially if I don't have my 870 and only have a pistol.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvSZ_HQmZgQ[/ame]

 

[federali]

An Actual Case You should Be Aware Of.

CON GETS 25 TO LIFE IN 1992 FINEST SLAY - NY Daily News

I've mentioned this case several times in previous posts where appropriate. Basically, a retired police sergeant, armed with a five-shot revolver and no spare ammo, took on one or two armed robbers in a NY financial district Radio Shack, not realizing that at least one more robber was present. He fired five times, all misses, and was then executed.

 

[Xfuzz]

My best advice....
Don't use the tater chip rack as cover.

 

[AimHigher]

Like Tucco said: "When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk." A pistol battle is no time for conversation. Telling a real bad guy to "f-off" is likely to provoke a violent reaction. Not a rational decision-making process. Same thing as "disrespecting" someone on the street or in prison. Good way to get killed. Chances are, you're not going to drop him with one or two or three shots unless you get him in the brain or spine. And a head shot with a pistol is no guarantee of a hit to the brain. Keep that in mind. Chances are, LOTS of shots are going to be fired....back and forth.... once it gets to that point if you're dealing with a real bad man. Just some amateur armed robber? Maybe that would be different. I'm not going to bother trying to find out which is which, especially if I don't have my 870 and only have a pistol.
The Good, the Bad and the Ugly- Tuco Shoots - YouTube

I didn't say I was going to engage him in a conversation -- and I certainly wouldn't say/do anything if I didn't think I was in a position of advantage - as in 2 pounds already on the trigger and a bead on the felon. I would only say F-off if the robber called me out from behind cover. I don't care if a felon feels disrespected -- especially when he's in the middle of committing an armed robbery.

 

[Navyvbss]

First learn state laws, take a defensive combat course and run through things like, if your behind a shelving, stay there, use cover and concealment, and dont be gun hoe to use your weapon, have it ready to defend yourself or others, if all he is gonna do is take the money and run, let him. Go on gun talk and watch the first person defender videos they have this scenerio. Its god food for thought and not training just food for thought

 

[Grayfox]

Never be the person who starts a gunfight.

 

[Faulkner]

I buy my candy bars in bulk at Walmart so I don't have to go into convenience stores.

 

[Art Doc]

I am not a cop. Not my job to enforce the law. I would not shoot a criminal unless he was directly threatening me. I would never under any circumstances no matter how dire shoot a black man. I don't want a gang or Black Lives Matter or the news media or the local crusader DA coming after me.

It is a brave new world.

If I was standing in a store and saw an armed robbery going down in front of me I would quietly back out the door and take off. I didn't see a damn thing. I can't ID anyone. I know that sounds awful but I can't just think about myself. I have a wife to worry about. I don't want a gang coming after us.

 

[Budnjax]

A lot depends on who you are, where you are

who the criminal is, etc. Many years ago in N.C. I worked for a man who used to own a big plant in town. He also owned a pawn shop. One day a black youth came in, grabbed a gold chain and started running towards the door. Mr. Ben shot him dead with one shot. The cops came, the body was carried away and that's really the last anyone in town heard about it. Back then being a thief was a 100% at risk occupation, whatever happens to you is just too bad. Today, if the same scenario occurred things would likely be much different. If you're a 30 year old athlete in great shape and you shoot someone stealing the lawn mower out of your open garage, you likely will be charged. Same situation but you're a 94 year old disabled woman in a wheelchair, you will likely get a pass in most locales. Best advice is always do whatever is necessary to avoid shooting or even displaying a gun. Even though you may be 100% morally and even legally right, you could end up with years of grief and thousands of dollars of legal expenses. That's the way it is in 2016 Amerika...where crooks run the government.

 

[Ziggy2525]

I had posted this on another forum, but it seems appropriate to this thread. It wasn't a convenience store, but a kid (24) with a CCW and good intentions that made some bad decisions.

Jury rejects claims of self defense, finds CCW holder guilty of manslaughter.

 

[gdc123]

I slept at a Holiday Inn last night and believe you are allowed to retaliate with the same force that the "victim" would be permitted, under the law. So, know what those laws are, properly interpret the situation (like, it's not the cashier's friend playing a prank), and act accordingly. Fact is, even if he's playing a prank, and you react within the boundaries of the law, you'd still be ok. Now, let's define ok.

Geography will play a huge part in how this plays out, but here goes:

In our justice system, you are presumed innocent until proven guilty.

When someone is shot to death, it's presumed murder, until proven otherwise (perhaps not officially, but that's how most LEOs operate. And I'm not knocking them for it).

The fact is, there's a dead body and someone will have to answer for that. In this scenario, it's you. You murdered this man and the police and the DA will want to know why, as will his family, but we'll get to that later.

So, a young officer shows up, anxious to get his first collar, and he asks you what happened? You say, this guy came in with a gun, threatened the cashier and I shot him. "click" the cuffs are on and the odyssey begins. Hopefully, the DA and the police (video tape) agree with your version. And they both must agree. Of course, by this time, you might/should already have contacted your lawyer. In fact, the best answer to the officer's question is: this guy came in with a gun, threatened the cashier and now he's dead. Officer: "Well, who shot him?" You: "I'd like to call my lawyer."

Assuming you make it through the legal gauntlet, that's when the fun really begins. See, the guy you justifiably shot, had a family and their primary form of support is laying in the morgue, someone will have to answer for that. In civil court, the rules are much different and you could find yourself on the wrong end of that. Heck, the "victim" could have been the guy's wife and they planned the robbery together, but you messed it up by killing him.

No, I don't write crime novels, but the fact is that once you discharge a firearm, right or wrong, you could spend $75,000 or more digging your way out of that mess. I don't care if you shot the guy in your bedroom. With the wrong DA, and our civil court system, you could be in a world of hurt.

For me:

Plan A - evade and escape whenever possible.

Only fire when there is absolutely no other alternative to protect myself or others. YMMV

Josey with all due respect some one in your bedroom quite differant. But I do understand your point.

 

[RSanch111]

So, a young officer shows up, anxious to get his first collar, and he asks you what happened? You say, this guy came in with a gun, threatened the cashier and I shot him. "click" the cuffs are on and the odyssey begins.

No, that's not how it works. You need probable cause to arrest someone. The scenario you described does not equal probable cause that a crime was committed and that the guy you describe as "under arrest" committed the crime. I've investigated many shootings where the shooter was not arrested. Shooting someone is not some kind of "magical" legal situation where an arrest is mandatory or guaranteed. The requirements for probable cause do not change based on the seriousness of the crime. A person may be detained for a short time based on what you describe, but an investigatory detention does not involve being transported to another location against a person's will.

Assuming you make it through the legal gauntlet, that's when the fun really begins. See, the guy you justifiably shot, had a family and their primary form of support is laying in the morgue, someone will have to answer for that.

Utter nonsense, unless you shot someone "accidentally" or someone who did not pose a reasonable threat to the life or physical safety of you or someone else. But the proof is in the pudding. Post some examples of people who have been sued after justifiably shooting someone who posed a serious threat. I'm not talking about "fleeing felons" because in some states, you may shoot a fleeing felon who poses no threat and while you can not be charged criminally, you may be held civilly liable.

 

[Protected One]

I would just say that if you shoot someone, hopefully justified, it is going to shake your world and change your life forever.
Even if justified, it will change your life, especially if you take someone's life.

I disagree. I was quite satisfied when I shot the guy who was going to kill me. None of the other cops I know have had any "life changing" or "world-shaking" experiences in the aftermath either. Who comes up with this stuff? Was there a survey or study done? If the shooting was NOT justified, the aftermath can obviously be life-changing.

Me too. I know several people who have shot (some killed) a person who was threatening them and their family. All were justified shootings, and NONE have suffered any adverse consequences.

I guess it just depends on the person. This "presumption" that it WILL shake your world and change your life forever is unsupported by facts.




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[BB57]

A few thoughts:

1. Muss Muggins had it right - no warning is needed.

If you are truly in a situation that poses an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury to yourself, or in states that allow defense of others, there isn't any need to issue a warning. In fact, if you feel comfortable enough or have time enough to issue a warning, it can (and probably will) be argued that you probably had other options and it speaks against both the need to should and the imminent nature of the threat. You don't want to go there. You either need to shoot or you don't. If you feel you should warn them first, you probably ought not be shooting.

2. Defense of others is always a tricky subject.

For example, I know of one case here in NC where an individual robbed the same convenience store once a week for seven weeks, stealing a carton of the same brand of cigarettes. He used the same stolen revolver each time, but to be honest after the first couple robberies the staff didn't see him as much of a threat - and he wasn't. (He wasn't real smart either and he's doing a really long stretch in federal prison as a repeat offender.)

Now...imagine yourself walking in on that seventh robbery and plugging the guy because you see him pointing a gun. Much to your surprise, you'd have probably found the clerk giving a statement that you had no need to shoot - and in the totality of events you didn't. You better lawyer up in that case as while the courts give a great deal of latitude to police officers in situations like that, you have no expectation of receiving the same latitude.

3. You won't be fast enough.

Even really skilled practical pistol shooters generally won't be able to get a shot off at an assailant first if he already has his gun out. If you think you're fast enough, you're not, and you either better be prepared to take a bullet, or you better have a firm grasp of some better options to create the time and/or space needed to draw and fire in that situation.

You'll need to consider using a distraction, or cover, or some other means to offset his already substantial advantage.

Recently there was an armed robbery attempt in a crowded train station or airport or somewhere similar south of the border, and an off duty officer happened to be next to the lady this guy tried to rob. The officer played the role of a nervous potential victim, pulled out his wallet and spilled the contents on the floor in front of the perpetrator, then backed away like he was going to flee. Then as soon as he was concealed by the original victim he drew his weapon, hooked around the original victim and shot the perpetrator who was busy going for the contents of the wallet. It was a very creative way to create the space and time needed to draw via a distraction and good use of concealment and was a very, very slick move that required some very cool thinking.

But....he was also a police officer. Even in the US, had he just been a concealed carry permit holder he would have probably had a really hard time demonstrating the perpetrator was posing an imminent threat to anyone at the point he shot him. He was busy collecting this loot and all the potential victims could have fled.

4. You just might not want to even go there.

In an "affirmative defense" state like VA where you are charged with second degree murder and then have to prove that a justification of self defense existed, shooting in the OP's scenario will still probably cost you a lot of money and a lot of stress to get off the hook, as unless the circumstances are very, very clear, and there are multiple witnesses to back up your story and agree what you did was necessary, you'll be arrested and you'll have to prove it in court.

5. Internet posts as searchable public records.

Sure, if you're one of those guys that says racist things like "all rag heads are terrorists", or overly aggressive things like "I don't care if it is a girl scout selling cookies, if she don't leave I'm gonna shoot her", or wannabe-looking-for-trouble things like "Damn...I hope someone tries to rob me some day so I can shoot them!" then yes, you need to just stay away from the key board as it won't work on your favor if you are ever involved in a self defense shoot.

However if you're posting intelligent, thoughtful, and reasonable comments that most people would regard as comments that reflect normal, sane, non violent or non aggressive behavior then you don't have much to worry about.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

As I said before, some good information above. Some not as good. Some silly. And, as for silly, I apologize for not recognizing the Seinfeld characters right off - I never watched one episode of that show.

Why?

I grew up around such people. They do not amuse me.

 

[DavidWJ]

After going through MANY self-defense scenarios in the CCW class and HOURS of CA law, the detective who issued my CCW simply said "don't get involved in other people's problems."