Roll crimp or not

[sctman800]

I mostly shoot 230 gr lead or possibly plated and have had a cylinder lock up because the bullets pulled out of the case. I don't give a big roll crimp but enough to dig into the side of the bullet without a groove. Another reason I have found for a roll crimp with moonclips is loading. I shoot IDPA and I had not had time to reload because we moved and I had not got things set up to reload. Bought regular ACP and had a terrible time reloading, turned out the corner of the case was hitting the charge hole edge. The roll is just enough to let the rounds drop in with out hanging up. Jim.

 

[kamloops67]

230 grn. bullets? Do you shoot range brass? Do you load toward the upper end of the range of the suggested loads from the manuals?

Lots to factor in there.

I also load cast .452 for a 625-8. I don't use AR brass but it shouldn't matter. What matters is the ability of the case to hold the bullet with neck tension. We all know that the taper crimp isn't what's holding the bullet in the case. The taper crimp should only be enough to bring the case mouth back to the proper dimension after it is belled. Too much taper crimp and you start crushing lead bullets. I've come across lots of range brass that won't properly size. Those are the cases that can still be used in a revolver with a roll crimp. Otherwise I load them for my 1911. A good test for neck tension is to push the loaded round into your loading bench with some force. If the bullet doesn't move you have enough tension for a 1911. My 625 will sometimes pull those same bullets. I know that seems pretty incredible but it happens enough that I roll crimp now for my revolver.

I've read that some reloaders are now using roll crimps for 45 ACP revolvers so it must be a thing. Both Redding and RCBS makes a roll crimp die for 45 ACP. The only people who would want or need those would be revolver shooters.

I load for both auto and revolver ( Brazilian and a S&W 1911)
My RCBS 45acp/auto-rim 3 piece die set came with a roll crimp die , which was irritating since all of my bullets were smooth plated berrys'
I had to buy a separate taper crimp die , $$, kinda made me angry
95% of 45 acp is loaded with a taper crimp and most of the bullets have no cannelure
RCBS was just giving me the shaft I figured
I have since learned that it's good to have the option to be able to do either , but RCBS should still sell the taper crimp die in the set or make it a 4 die set and charge more .

 

[LostintheOzone]

I load for both auto and revolver ( Brazilian and a S&W 1911)
My RCBS 45acp/auto-rim 3 piece die set came with a roll crimp die , which was irritating since all of my bullets were smooth plated berrys'
I had to buy a separate taper crimp die , $$, kinda made me angry
95% of 45 acp is loaded with a taper crimp and most of the bullets have no cannelure
RCBS was just giving me the shaft I figured
I have since learned that it's good to have the option to be able to do either , but RCBS should still sell the taper crimp die in the set or make it a 4 die set and charge more .

I agree. Most people are going to taper crimp for autos so no real need for a roll crimp. I taper crimp all of my auto ammo without issue. I only purchased a roll crimp die when my 625 started pulling bullets. They load easier also being roll crimped because the mouth isn't hanging up on the cylinder charge hole. My 625 doesn't have chamfered charge holes.

But as others have said, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[oysterer]

So many responses already but to be short it works like this ALWAYS, no exceptions. Independent on gun and bullet cases, rim or not.

Canelure on the bullet or wadcutter = roll cr
Smooth bullet = taper cr

Otherwise you damage the jacket or coating on the bullet or deform it.

I load 38 specials with coated RN bullets and use a 9mm taper crimp to slightly bring the case mouth in, a light taper.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

According to the dimensions given for AR brass and ACP brass using clips, the dimension from the clip face to the case mouth and the dimension from the face of the AR rim to the case mouth are the same. ..809". Neither one head spaces on the cylinder wall. The case mouth by design for both ACP and AR fall about 0.02" short of the cylinder wall ledge.

When I was establishing what depth to cut my chambers (specifically it's ledge/shoulder) to when I was converting my 625 from 45ACP to 45WSM I found that the four 45ACP cylinders I had on-hand ranged from .8170" to .8270" in depth, from the cylinder's breech face to the factory chamber's ledge/shoulder.

Even with these variations their depths still exceeds the maximum SAAMI case length by .008"-.018" so that moonclipped ammo or Auto Rims will not contact the chamber's ledge/shoulder.

This is just one of the reasons why some people have light strikes or misfires when they shoot their 45ACP ammo without moonclips as the cartridge inserts slightly deeper into the chamber (to headspace on the case mouth) which puts the case head & primer slightly farther away from the firing pin.

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[LostintheOzone]

When I was establishing what depth to cut my chambers (specifically it's ledge/shoulder) to when I was converting my 625 from 45ACP to 45WSM I found that the four 45ACP cylinders I had on-hand ranged from .8170" to .8270" in depth, from the cylinder's breach face to the factory chamber's ledge/shoulder.

Even with these variations their depths still exceeds the maximum SAAMI case length by .008"-.018" so that moonclipped ammo or Auto Rims will not contact the chamber's ledge/shoulder.

This is just one of the reasons why some people have light strikes or misfires when they shoot their 45ACP ammo without moonclips as the cartridge inserts slightly deeper into the chamber (to headspace on the case mouth) which puts the case head & primer slightly farther away from the firing pin.

.

I'm glad you posted this. I never thought about it much until I realized I didn't know what was going on with my own revolver. Also not all revolvers are the same as you pointed out but the idea that the cylinder shoulder wasn't a factor for normal headspace in a 45 ACP revolver seems consistent.

Now there could be some odd ball out there that would prove me wrong so I'll never say never.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Agreed. Using moonclipped or 45AR cases in a 45ACP revolver shouldn't contact the chamber's ledge/shoulder if the case has the proper length.

Here's some of the dimensions & clearances I documented before I converted that 45ACP cylinder to 45WSM

You can clearly see that moonclipped cases are closer to the frame breech, & the firing pin, & sit higher on the cylinder face.

That said, I almost never use moonclips in any or my revolvers that are rimless cartridges.

My M325/625s & M610 shoot reliably without them.


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Case head height above cylinder face, with case headspacing on chamber shoulder
------------------------------
min length (.888") case= .067"
mid length (.893") case= .072"
max length (.898") case= .077"

w/plastic moonclips= .081"
w/metal moonclips = .083" (.040" thick metal moonclip)

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Headspace clearance:
(shell head to frame, with case headspacing on chamber shoulder)
--------------------------------------
min length (.888") case= .030"
mid length (.893") case= .025"
max length (.898") case= .020"

w/plastic moonclips= .017"
w/metal moonclips = .013"

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Back to the roll crimp subject, while the vast majority of my 45 revolver handloads get a taper crimp, because of the bullets used, & irregardless of whether it's in an ACP or AR case, the ones that do have a cannelure (Sierra's 240gr JHC) do get a roll crimp with my Redding Profile Crimp die.

Some taper crimped loads are hard to keep from jumping crimp especially when it's a hot load in a lightweight revolver, like 45 Supers in a Sc framed revolver (325NG or 325TR).

Here using a re-sizing die with a smaller diameter can give you tighter bullet-case tension to help mitigate the bullet jumping crimp & creeping forward.

Years ago I was having this trouble & I found out that the RCBS TC sizing die I had been using for years had a .467" inside diameter (using my pin gages). Along with the nickel Remington cases I occasionally used, that had slightly thinner case walls, these loads easily jumped crimp even with when using minimal case mouth flaring before seating.

Both of the new Lee & Hornady dies I've bought since measure a tighter diameter, .465".

And the nickel plated cases? I trashed them. Never really cared for nickel cases anyway.

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Of course any roll crimped cartridge does need to be shot using moonclips or Auto Rim cases.
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[Eddie Southgate]

I load a lot of .45 AR and roll crimp every one . You can use a taper crimp but the roll crimp is more secure . I roll crimp all revolver cartridges , period.

 

[ironhead7544]

I have been using the Lee Factory Crimp die for all semi auto reloading for many years. I pick up any cases I can find at the range. Never had a problem with bullet set back.

Many moons ago, when you could buy a 1917 Colt or S&W for about $30.00 dollars, we loaded the AR case for more velocity. Using 2400 powder and AR cases with a roll crimp worked fine. I wont mention the charge, but you can find it in Elmer Keith's writings.

I went to the range with a friend who was new to reloading. He had loaded up some 45 ACP brass with the 230 gr FMJ and used a full roll crimp. I thought they might not fire but they all worked just fine. Some people claim the 1911 extractor holds the case against the firing pin.

Every round you handload is an experiment. So, it there is any doubt in your mind about the bullet jumping the crimp, find out if they will. Mark one cartridge then measure the COL. Fire five rounds and then measure the COL again. Then repeat so the cartridge has had 10 recoil cycles. Check the COL again. If it gets too long in your opinion, redo your crimp.

Be aware that crimp can effect velocity and pressure.