Roy Jinks Letter ????

[Absalom]

.... If someone thinks it's worth $50 to learn that their M&P was blued, has a 4" barrel and checkered wood stocks, and was sent to a hardware store in Mobile, Alabama on April 14, 1956, why should I care?

Dear DWalt,
yes, indeed, why should you care? Yet you seem to care quite a bit, because frequently when this discussion about the purpose of letters comes up, you feel compelled to try to talk people out of lettering their "ordinary" guns, based on your somewhat arbitrary definition of "historical significance" and "value of a letter", which not everybody seems to share.

As far as I'm concerned, the letters are a service which Smith & Wesson advertises and wants to sell, and Mr. Jinks is engaged and paid to supply that service. I wonder how the owner of a busy store would feel if you stood outside and told people headed inside "I think you shouldn't shop here, they are really busy and overworked, they could use a break!" I don't think he'd be very appreciative. Yet that's exactly what you're doing by discouraging people from ordering letters because their guns aren't "special" enough.

Now I have nothing but the highest respect for Mr. Jinks and his work, but I would much prefer if Smith & Wesson adopted Colt's business model. It would get a lot pricier, but if I have an extra 100 bucks burning a hole in my pocket, I can have my answer in a few days, the operation is sustainable, I can actually get a discount the more guns I letter at the same time, and nobody tries to put a guilt trip on people for overburdening an old gentleman who apparently needs protecting from customers.

 

[Club Gun Fan]

Harold Devine? The boxer?!? Wow! That's great!

Watchdog
I think you have him confused with Harold DeVine. He invented the boxer shorts.

 

[ol777gunnerz]

For Club Gun Fan & rct269

As one who was an actual working man, I can relate to Roy's predicament, being buried in more work than you can do while getting older each year, which makes it a little more difficult. Now everybody & his brother want a letter. Instead of knocking my post, why not start a campaign to get help for Roy in the letters dep't.?

 

[ol777gunnerz]

Try again, wrong scan. Here is Roy Jinks statement on letters. I have to click the photo, when page changes, clicked again, then click return & full page pic comes up.

 

[quinn]

Dear DWalt,

Now I have nothing but the highest respect for Mr. Jinks and his work, but I would much prefer if Smith & Wesson adopted Colt's business model. It would get a lot pricier, but if I have an extra 100 bucks burning a hole in my pocket, I can have my answer in a few days, the operation is sustainable, I can actually get a discount the more guns I letter at the same time, and nobody tries to put a guilt trip on people for overburdening an old gentleman who apparently needs protecting from customers.

And look where Colt is today....

 

[Absalom]

And look where Colt is today....

Not anywhere Smith & Wesson hasn't been multiple times before in terms of its corporate history. So this isn't much of an argument in this discussion.

 

[Tom K]

Try again, wrong scan. View attachment 184800 Here is Roy Jinks statement on letters. I have to click the photo, when page changes, clicked again, then click return & full page pic comes up.

Here is the original question of the referenced post:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-antiques/285905-what-value-vs-cost-factory-letter.html

Here is the full text of Roy's reply, with my bolding added:

I have asked myself this question many time, but I can letter one of mine anytime I want. It is very rare that S&W shipped to an individual, but every once in awhile even I get shocked as to who the gun went to. The period from 1857 to 1869 the guns will generally be shipped through J. w. Storrs of New York City who was S&W's sole agent in that time frame. After S&W brought Storrs into to the Wesson Firearms Co, his Clerk M. W. Robinson became the S&W Main distributor for the factory and handle 95% of all sales up the mid-1880's. Robinson also handled many of the special orders such as engraving and ivory grips. During the 1880 the number of distributor grow. To me the a couple of the key Western Distributors over looked are Sears Roebuck and Montgomery Wards as a lot of Western place ordered by mail. To let you know there is more information on the older guns than on the modern guns. The stuff that is now on computer does not provide any details like the old records. If it was my choice I would stop researching them and wasting peoples money. As to the time delay, their is only me doing the letters. If S&W sends me out on the road or I take a vacation everything stops. It generally take 10 to 12 weeks to get answer unless I have been away then it will run to 16 weeks. That is my take on the letters. Roy __________________

Roy G. Jinks
Historian, Smith & Wesson

The "them" referenced that he would like to stop researching, is the modern guns that have little detail - not the old stuff. I have no idea how recent the computerized stuff is and Roy doesn't really say.

For what it's worth, I sent in letter requests for six guns back in November. These are the first I've ever sent, and I figure I ought to do it now 'cause Roy isn't getting any younger. The guns are all pre WWII, and have special features (such as target sights) that make them of greater interest. I certainly wouldn't waste Roy's limited time on any of my run-of-the-mill guns that they made hundreds of thousands of. Because I don't want to be, you know, a selfish jerk.

 

[mrcvs]

I enjoy learning about my Smith & Wesson's and where they came from, etc., but, then again, most of my stuff is pre-1899. Unless you have terminal cancer or something, just be patient waiting for a letter. Besides, good things happen to folks who wait!

 

[handejector]

I certainly wouldn't waste Roy's limited time on any of my run-of-the-mill guns that they made hundreds of thousands of. Because I don't want to be, you know, a selfish jerk.

selfish jerk?
for lettering a common gun?
That's a strange call.

Granpappy's 38 M&P from 1955 is not a common gun to the grandson who owns it.

A well worn 28-2 is not a common gun to the cop who carried it 30 years.

The Victory model like the one my cousin shot two enemy troops with is not a common gun.


In another thread, I said that by the 30s, S&W usually directed individuals who wrote them trying to order a gun to contact a dealer or distributor.
That was usually the policy.
However, a notable exception is LEOs.
I've seen several letters confirming a gun had been shipped directly to an LEO or a PD.
There is an Federal excise tax on new guns. A gun sent to an LEO ordered on a department letterhead for LEO duty use could be accompanied by an exemption form for that excise tax.
S&W also often gave LEOs a sweet deal on pricing.
Find a common 5" M&P or a 44-2nd shipped in 1930 or an M&P shipped in 1950 to a somewhat famous sheriff or a Texas Ranger, and you just hit the jackpot.

On modern guns, if a guy wants to pay his money, he should get his letter. Maybe he wants to know if it shipped on his wedding day.

 

[Watchdog]

Watchdog
I think you have him confused with Harold DeVine. He invented the boxer shorts.

At first, I couldn't tell if you were serious or not. Or I wondered if maybe I was confused. After some (very brief) research, I came to the conclusion you were pulling my leg.

You and I both know I'm referring to Harold Devine, the boxer who won the Olympic Bronze Medal as a featherweight in the 1928 Olympics.

 

[Tom K]

Originally Posted by Tom K
I certainly wouldn't waste Roy's limited time on any of my run-of-the-mill guns that they made hundreds of thousands of. Because I don't want to be, you know, a selfish jerk.
(Emphasis added.)

selfish jerk?
for lettering a common gun?
That's a strange call.

Granpappy's 38 M&P from 1955 is not a common gun to the grandson who owns it.

A well worn 28-2 is not a common gun to the cop who carried it 30 years.

The Victory model like the one my cousin shot two enemy troops with is not a common gun.

I'm not any of those people. I don't have any guns that have special meaning to me like that, at least not any that are otherwise common S&Ws. For me to letter my common guns just because I can, I think yes would make me a selfish jerk. As opposed to just a regular jerk.

In another thread, I said that by the 30s, S&W usually directed individuals who wrote them trying to order a gun to contact a dealer or distributor.
That was usually the policy.
However, a notable exception is LEOs.
I've seen several letters confirming a gun had been shipped directly to an LEO or a PD.
There is an Federal excise tax on new guns. A gun sent to an LEO ordered on a department letterhead for LEO duty use could be accompanied by an exemption form for that excise tax.
S&W also often gave LEOs a sweet deal on pricing.
Find a common 5" M&P or a 44-2nd shipped in 1930 or an M&P shipped in 1950 to a somewhat famous sheriff or a Texas Ranger, and you just hit the jackpot.

I'm not much of a gambler. I've never even bought a lottery ticket. Blindly lettering common guns just on the off chance that they might have gone to someone of note seems like a waste of money and resources. If on the other hand there is some kind of compelling reason to think that it might be special, then it could be worthwhile. The old saying goes, "Buy the gun, not the story." Sometimes the story might be worth checking out. Or not. It's a judgement call, but a call that should be based on more than the shotgun approach of lettering everything.

On modern guns, if a guy wants to pay his money, he should get his letter. Maybe he wants to know if it shipped on his wedding day.

Okay, a guy wants to know if it shipped on his wedding day. Fine. Sentimental value. But the first sentence kinda rubs me the wrong way - "On modern guns, if a guy wants to pay his money, he should get his letter." That seems to imply that any reason (or none at all) is okay as long as S&W gets paid. Is money the only thing that matters here? Not to me. Maybe I'm a sap but I don't think that all things boil down to dollars and cents.

I'll try to explain. As far as I know this is a one-man show. Someone said that Roy could do about four letters per day. So letters are a limited resource. Roy restricts letter requests to three per week. I could send in letter requests for my common guns for, well, quite a while at three per week. So while I'm increasing Roy's backlog with guns that aren't special in some way, the grandson, the cop and your cousin in your examples above are having to wait for Roy to get through my pile.

Then Roy gets hit by a bus. "Sorry, no more letters. Yours would have been done weeks ago but Tom K had so many ahead of you. But S&W got paid just the same for Tom K's letters as we would have for yours, so we're happy. Too bad for you, have a nice day."

So like I said, I have sent for letters for only six of my guns because of features or background that might prove of interest. There are a few more I'm thinking of lettering. But I wouldn't letter one just because it says "S&W" on it, because that might mean you never get a letter on that RM1 that you happened across.

 

[S&W SS Revolvers]

I am a simple , frugal man. With that being said $50.00 bucks is a pretty cool price to satisfy a simple curiousity one may have. Unfortunately all of the S&W's we have were purchased new so there is no reason for a letter. IMO it's a good deal and I will if ever we buy a used that is older. Only to satisfy that curiousity.

This forum has been so enlightening and there are sooooo many .357's of years past I'd love to own. Fifty dollars is a great deal and that service doesn't even have to be offered. I see the benefit big time.

 

[one eye joe]

Someone recently said that 4 months is the current normal wait time. One problem is that the system is probably overloaded with letter requests regarding very common guns which won't benefit very much from being lettered.

IMHO, THIS IS VERY TRUE Dwalt. MOST PEOPLE DON'T REALIZE THIS UNTIL THEY HAVE A COMMON, BUT INTERESTING TO THEM, GUN LETTERED…..

I FELL VICTIM TO THIS BEGINNERS TRAP MYSELF. I HAD A 3" 629 LETTERED TO FIND OUT THAT IT WAS NOT A LEW HORTON, AND A 8 3/8" WITH AN UNFLUTED CYLINDER, TO FIND OUT THAT IT WAS MERELY A "CLASSIC HUNTER". BOTH WERE PURCHASED USED W/O A BOX. NONE OF THIS INFO WAS WORTH $100. AND MANY MONTHS OF WAIT. ALL COULD HAVE BEEN GLEANED FROM THE STANDARD CATALOG---WHICH AT THE TIME, I DID NOT OWN……….

 

[Absalom]

......

I'll try to explain. As far as I know this is a one-man show. Someone said that Roy could do about four letters per day. So letters are a limited resource. Roy restricts letter requests to three per week. I could send in letter requests for my common guns for, well, quite a while at three per week. So while I'm increasing Roy's backlog with guns that aren't special in some way, the grandson, the cop and your cousin in your examples above are having to wait for Roy to get through my pile.

Then Roy gets hit by a bus. "Sorry, no more letters. Yours would have been done weeks ago but Tom K had so many ahead of you. But S&W got paid just the same for Tom K's letters as we would have for yours, so we're happy. Too bad for you, have a nice day."

So like I said, I have sent for letters for only six of my guns because of features or background that might prove of interest. There are a few more I'm thinking of lettering. But I wouldn't letter one just because it says "S&W" on it, because that might mean you never get a letter on that RM1 that you happened across.

I'm sure you sincerely believe you're doing the right thing, but I think we should not over-dramatize the importance of the whole thing.

It's not like we're in line for a kidney transplant here. Nobody, and I mean nobody at all, NEEDS a factory letter. This is about as pure a luxury item as one could possibly imagine. Even the vast majority of happy S&W owners has probably never even heard of the thing.

Now as I've said above, for me the letter is a product S&W advertises and sells. Mr. Jinks gets paid to provide that service, and presumably he enjoys the work, or he should stop. If there are too many orders, S&W should hire more people, raise the price, or both. I have heard nothing from Mr. Jinks or S&W indicating that the service would stop if he does; all hints or indications to that effect have come from people with a clear conflict of interest because they are collectors themselves who letter "special" guns and could be suspected of wanting to deter the proletarian competition and their "ordinary" guns.

That's why I'm going to continue to letter every historic gun that I add to my collection, and enjoy every new hardware store whose history I can explore.

 

[mrcvs]

99% of the firearms out there are 'ordinary, common guns'. The curiosity factor is still worth the $50 for the earlier ones that I tend to collect (e.g., pre-1899). One might have an ordinary, common gun, but it is in 98% condition after 125 years, and, to me, it is worth lettering a pristine firearm. I even lettered a Smith & Wesson Model 1903 because it is my concealed carry firearm and I got it so incredibly cheaply that an extra $50 just to know about it was worth it to me, and, even with another $50 added in, the total price was still half of retail.

Think about it. If there is a backlog of 800 letters over 4 months time (which is, I think I read somewhere, about how big the backlog generally is), that's $40,000 to Smith & Wesson, or about $10,000 a month. Let's say that 2.5% of the firearms out there are not ordinary, common guns, and, due to the 'wow' factor, they are lettered at twice the rate of ordinary, common guns, as a firearm that is not ordinary and common is more likely to be lettered. Twice 2.5% is 5%. 5% of 800 over 4 months would be 5% of 200 per month, or only 10 letters. 10 x $50 is $500. $500 per month would not be enough to keep the service available to us, pay Roy's salary, etc.

After doing the math, does ANYONE out there now think ordinary, common guns should not be lettered any more?

Edit: At the beginning of my dialogue, I stated 99% of firearms are common. Then I stated that 2.5% are not common (a bit contradictory), and did the math. Well, I don't know how many are common vs. uncommon, so I picked completely random figures. It's kind of like a question that might be asked of a prospective MBA student in an interview, such as 'How many gas stations are there in Virginia?' It doesn't have to be that the answer is anywhere close to reality, but the ability to think would be demonstrated, as in, Virginia has about 8 million people, half of them drive, the rest do not, due to age (very old and children), or using public transportation, so that means there are 4 million drivers in Virginia. The average person fills up once a week, so that is 4 million gas purchases, and, if the average station can handle 10,000 fill-ups regularly, that means that 4 million divided by 10,000 is 400. So the answer is 400. May not even be remotely close to correct...but you get the picture.

 

[DWalt]

In my original commentary, my meaning was that there will always be only a tiny percentage (I'd say 0.01%) of guns which will actually benefit from lettering, i.e., resulting in some revelation which will increase the value of the gun. I have no problem with anyone who wants to letter a gun, no matter how common, and is willing to pay his $50 to do so. However, I also believe that anyone with such an intent deserves to be made fully aware before sending in his money that there is a very high probability that the letter will say only that he has a very pedestrian gun with no interesting history, and that his $50 could have been spent better on something else. Knowing that, it allows a more informed decision, and he won't be disappointed when the letter arrives, providing little more information than when it was shipped. I notice that a lot of new posters seem to believe that getting a factory letter on Grandpa's old beat-up .32 revolver will provide all sorts of wonderful information about the complete history of the gun, everyone who ever owned it and when, who was shot with it, etc., etc., which simply will never happen. That person deserves to know the facts and should be told what (and what not) to expect before he sends off for a letter, and to not get his hopes up. In most cases, more information can be obtained on most S&Ws by asking here than will result from a letter, and it's free. And, on the other hand, if someone seems to have a specimen which appears to warrant getting a letter, then I always suggest that he does so.

 

[Muss Muggins]

My two cents: Capitalism at its finest. Do I like .22 hoarders? No. Do they have the right to do what they do? Yes. Does that get in the way of my purchase of .22 ammunition? Yes. Is your letter in the way of my letter? If you sent it before January 3, yes. Do I think factory letters should be allocated "to each according to his need?" You tell me . . .

There are a lot of things that I think people ought not spend money on, but I don't think it's my place to tell them, unless I'm making fun of them . . .

 

[dltvette]

In post # 35 by DWalt, he stated, [ "I notice that a lot of new posters seem to believe that getting a factory letter on Grandpa's old beat-up .32 revolver will provide all sorts of wonderful information about the complete history of the gun, everyone who ever owned it and when, who was shot with it, etc., etc., which simply will never happen." ].
I decided last year to letter a .32 S.A. serial number 7692 (all numbers match) that has the internal eccentric strain screw that belonged to my Grandfather. It said my S&W .32 SA, Cam Main Spring Adjustment Variation shipped Sept. 20, 1878. The last sentence of the paragraph was worth the $50 spent on my "run-of-the-mill" Grandfathers revolver. "This revolver is the highest recorded serial number with a main spring cam adjustment."
This might not be of interest to the majority of collectors, but for me, knowing that my grandfather might have owned the highest serial numbered .32 SA with the internal eccentric stain screw manufactured was satisfaction enough for me.
Dave

 

[Absalom]

........However, I also believe that anyone with such an intent deserves to be made fully aware before sending in his money that there is a very high probability that the letter will say only that he has a very pedestrian gun with no interesting history, and that his $50 could have been spent better on something else. Knowing that, it allows a more informed decision, and he won't be disappointed when the letter arrives, providing little more information than when it was shipped. I notice that a lot of new posters seem to believe that getting a factory letter on Grandpa's old beat-up .32 revolver will provide all sorts of wonderful information about the complete history of the gun, everyone who ever owned it and when, whowas shot with it, etc., etc., which simply will never happen. That person deserves to know the facts and should be told what (and what not) to expect before he sends off for a letter, and to not get his hopes up..... .

I do believe you have a point there. Both Colt and S&W could easily be specific on their order website as to what exactly can be expected to be covered in the letter, as the content is pretty standardized.
I suspect, though, that the majority of letter customers are not of the "babe in the woods" type, but are repeat offenders who know what not to expect. The fact that S&W's order form has space for up to three guns at a time (even I have never had occasion to use this feature), as well as Colt's elaborate discount structure (20% discount for 20 or more letters ordered) seems to indicate that the whole concept is not intended for the casual "Grandpa's gun in the sock drawer" folks.

 

[JCWonW]

Reason for requesting a 'LETTER'

My reason for requesting a letter on my 1905 H.E. 38 Special, was to find out the original specification when manufactured - shipped. The revolver had been returned to S & W according to the date stamped under the left grip. (7.19 = July 1919 ?update 1st to 4th change?) When purchased by me it was fitted with a modern 5 inch target barrel and adjustable rear sight.(Combat Masterpiece?) with 'PACHMAYR' grips. My letter requested 3rd October 2014 check cashed by S&W 10th October. Resulted in a letter dated 26th January 2015 which I received 3rd February. It was originally a .38 Hand Ejector, Military & Police Model. 1st change Target 5 inch barrel, blued finish, with checkered walnut non-monogramed square butt grips. Comments on my photographs, "completely modified and refinished well after 1950" The comments were obvious, however it was nice to know the original specification. The shipping date, June 25th 1906 to Market & Co. New York City. N.Y. is of academic interest, as the company seems to be lost in antiquity. I like and enjoy it, it shoots and works well, and is now a more interesting addition to my small S&W collection. (model 36 & 5906) The letter did not increase, and was not expected to increase the value of my 'hybrid' revolver. The original specification is of interest, and was unknown before receipt of the letter. I had worked out the origin of the replacement parts, although the reason is lost, possibly wear, damage, update for competition, who knows. I hope that my story is of interest. Although the revolver is no longer original, with the very reasonable price paid, considering the quality and current condition of a very presentable and usable .38 special S&W target revolver, I am happy and very satisfied. Also pleased that I requested the letter.