Russian model more history

[Ballarat]

Gday all
Been doing research on my 1st model (old old Russian) Appears that the piece was in the original run of 20000 produced in 1872. However was rejected due to a couple of minor flaws. Will go into detail at a later date when I have a letter from Mr Jinks. Things are a bit hectic there of late I believe. The Letters on its way there though. If what I have found is correct around 500 of this run were rejected by the Russians. The minor flaws did not impede the shooting ability of the firearm, mostly cosmetic in this case. These guns were disposed of on the civilian market, this is where I have hit a brick wall at the present time. The item did not come to Australia as part of any colonial police arms shipment, they were all new model no.3'"s. Mostly if not all nickel plated from the records I have seen here. Quite a few with shoulder stocks which was a revelation...280 pieces in all. They were all disposed of overseas at some time, the public here never given the opportunity to purchase a part of our history.

......to be continued

Rgds to all
Bob

 

[opoefc]

Bob, I would be interested in more details regarding your research about 500 guns being rejected by the Russians. Can you post more details? Are you referring to the 500 unfinished old style frame revolvers that Gen Gorloff asked S&W to keep, and S&W probably shipped to M.W.Robinson, per info. in Charlie pate's book? Does your first model have the S&W barrel stamping and the words "Russian Model?" Is there a SH&G stamp on your gun? Charlie believes most of these 500 revolvers were changed to .44 American caliber from the .44 Russian caliber, before being sent to the commercial distributers. What caliber is your gun? Many American models found their way to DownUnder, and my collector friends there seem to always have a fair selection. I have bought a number of nice examples from the Aussie Auction houses, usually at very fair prices due the the Aussie & US dollar exchane rates ( in the past) . Ed #15

 

[Ballarat]

Bob, I would be interested in more details regarding your research about 500 guns being rejected by the Russians. Can you post more details? Are you referring to the 500 unfinished old style frame revolvers that Gen Gorloff asked S&W to keep, and S&W probably shipped to M.W.Robinson, per info. in Charlie pate's book? Does your first model have the S&W barrel stamping and the words "Russian Model?" Is there a SH&G stamp on your gun? Charlie believes most of these 500 revolvers were changed to .44 American caliber from the .44 Russian caliber, before being sent to the commercial distributers. What caliber is your gun? Many American models found their way to DownUnder, and my collector friends there seem to always have a fair selection. I have bought a number of nice examples from the Aussie Auction houses, usually at very fair prices due the the Aussie & US dollar exchane rates ( in the past) . Ed #15

Gday Ed. My example has the barrel rib markings in English she is marked Russian model. No sign of any Cyrillic script or Russian eagle markings having been ground off then restamped in English. The piece is in 44 Russian. I put a steel straight edge over the stamping/barrel rib, all is as flat as a pancake. No grind-off indentations. The 500 or so rejects according to what I have read were for minor flaws which did not affect the guns functionality. There is no SH&G stamp on the piece. The only unusual mark I cannot trace is the capital D surrounded by the semicircle that encloses the D in an arch configuration. Between the the rear lock-up lugs is stamped a crude five pointed star. The left lug indentation bears four straight marks or dashes as would be seen arranged like the four diamonds in a deck of cards. As to the 500 rejects, basically going on the serial number of the piece, it correlates to the first Russian contract of 20000, mine is serial number 14308. She also carries and unusually so the straight edge trigger rather than the pointed trigger. Usual 8 inch barrel. A letter has been dispatched to Mr Jinks for further info, will share the response when in receipt. The frame has the normal reinforce over the trigger pin (slight bulge) as opposed to the early American straight "frame". The lanyard ring is the normal part applied to the Russians. This I believe was a genuine reject on the new frame during that 20000 production run. Its all so very interesting. I cannot find enough informatiojn to satisfy my hunger for knowledge on the piece at this time. Your thoughts and any further input would be greatly appreciated.

 

[opoefc]

Bob, I can answer some of the questions you have. The D stamp, with the semi-circle is the Russian inspector's stamp. It may also appear on the bottom of the butt, stamped in the wood of one of the stock panels. There should also be a small punch mark on the cylinder face and a corresponding punch mark on the adjacent extractor spoke. Those punch marks are the S&W inspector's marks.
The star stamp, usually applied by S&W to the extractor lug, to indicate the gun was rejected by the Russians and then had the cryllic barrel stamp milled off and the S&W stamp, with "Russian Model" added so commercial buyers would know it was chambered in .44 Russian instead of .44 American. Your gun's star stamp is in an area I have not seen before, so it may not be a Factory stamping, and it's meaning unclear, similar to the 4 dash marks. I don't have a theory on what those dash marks indicate. Most collectors will call an American model with the trigger pin hump a 2nd model, however when it gets to the Russian contract guns, there's a lot of confusion. As you know, that hump was added at the request of the Russians, for reasons that still remain unclear. When you get Roy's letter, it will probably say it was shipped to M.W.Robinson. Both Robinson and SH&G were after all the Russian rejects, however S&Ws previous committment to Robinson as the sole distributor for the commercial market put S&W between a rock and a hard spot, so to speak, as the factory wanted to maintain good relations with both firms. It is believed that the two distributor firms worked out a plan between themselves to share the goodies. There are enough anomalies in observed specimens of these Russian contract gun to keep us all guessing, such as your trigger configuration. Gen. Gorloff originally requested S&W to take back 2500 guns, ( 2000 finished and 500 unfinished), all of which were the no trigger pin hump frames, however this was negotiated down to 500 guns ( Out of the 20,0000 gun contract)., and Robinson absorbed the cost of the changes to make them commerially acceptable, as the Russians refused. The S&W archival notes indicate the 500 unfinished guns as being the old model frames without the trigger pin hump, and these got the changes noted above to make them usable by Robinson. I doubt your gun was one of the 500, as it has the hump. More likely, it is a reject, for whatever reason by the Russians, that found its way to the commercial market and then to Australia. Hope that helps, Ed Cornett #15

 

[Ballarat]

Ed. Many thanks for all your info. The D stamp appears twice, one on the rear face of the cylinder under the serial number stamp. The other just forward of the front trigger guard screw head. No discernable S&W inspector stamp, however on the extractor spoke adjacent to the serial number and D stamp there is small pin punch mark, I assumed this to be a witness mark for correct re-assembly after take-down.

There are two small flaws on the piece, left grip has slight indentation forward of the grip screw assembly, the other is a small indentation in the barrel casting on the right side about an inch and a quarter back from the muzzle. Internal barrel dimensions are not affected by this indentation.

M.W. Robinson, would they still be in bussiness today? perhaps under another name. Once again thanks your info, greatly appreciated.
Rgds
Bob

 

[opoefc]

Bob, As far as I know, M.W.Robinson and SH&G are both history, having been absorbed into other entities around 1900, or so. I have heard rumors that some of their records were recently discovered and possibly something will be published on that fact. Ed #15

 

[Ballarat]

Gday Ed. Think I may have found the reason the Russians wanted the reinforce at the trigger pin. The first lot of Russians probably bearing the low numbers were built on the American straight frame with no reinforce, these guns had the hammer actuated cylinder stop. As per the American models. The later guns in this first series had the trigger actuated cylinder stop, the trigger pin was thus redesigned and made thicker, hence the need for a bit more meat in the frame. I do not know at what serial number this change took place though.
But it did happen in the 1 to 20000 serial number range. David Chicoines book Antique guns assembly/disassembly mentions this briefly. Thus all the models from then on in including the Schofields and later models had this reinforce.

 

[twaits]

Hey Ballrat. I just wanted to post the link to the original thread so people can see what gun you're talking about. This is a very interesting story unfolding

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-antiques/64103-1st-model-russian-value-sought.html

 

[opoefc]

Ballarat, Your theory on the "bump" and the larger trigger pin may be the reason, however S&W memos & correspondence in the S&W archives seem to indicate the S&W people could see no valid reason for the bump, etc. and only agreed to do it if the Russians paid for the extra cost, etc. At first the Russians said no, however it was apparently worked out to both sides satisfaction, probably because the civiian dealers in the US agreed to take any Russian rejects for the commercial market. As we know the Russians desired their guns to look more like European guns of the period, with which they were more accustomed esthetically - such as wanting the back strap hump and the trigger guard hook, etc. Money talked and the Russians were paying in American Gold for the guns, so S&W was not about unnecesarily aggravate their best customer. Ed SWCA # 15.

 

[Ballarat]

Hey Ballrat. I just wanted to post the link to the original thread so people can see what gun you're talking about. This is a very interesting story unfolding

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-antiques/64103-1st-model-russian-value-sought.html

Thanks mate, never even thought of it.

 

[Ballarat]

Apart from the 500 non reinforced pieces, does anybody know how many rejects there were of those that carried the reinforce, in the 1 to 20000 serial number range. The job of tracing this piece in Australia is going to be the really hard part. From what little I have gleaned so far the piece possibly came by way of Wisconsin in 1886. But no solid confirmation.
Handguns were not registered in Australia until I think the 1920 era. I shall continue the search through the firearm registeries in our various states. Names will not be given to me though. I will backtrack from the dealer I bought it off as well.

 

[opoefc]

I doubt if anyone knows how many rejects there were. If you had time (months!) to research through the S&W archives at the Conn. Valley Historical Museum, where they are stored, you might be able to guess from shipping totals, how many of these guns were not delivered to the Russians, and then estimate how many of them were rejects vs commerical production. It would only be a guess, at the best. Ed. SWCA #15

 

[Ballarat]

Thanks your info Ed, I kinda thought this would be the case, dont envisage visiting the States in the near future however. But you never know. Still eagerly awaiting Mr Jinks letter though. Thanks again Sir, you are a wealth of information, wish I had half your knowledge on the old Smiths.

Kind Regards
Bob

 

[twaits]

Ballrat,

You've probably been asked this and may be a little tired of the question.
What kind of hoops do you need to jump through to be a gun collector in Australia? Is that S&W the only gun you own or do you have more?
It sucks that your govt took most of your guns away. Nobody should have to go through that.

-Erik

 

[Ballarat]

Ballrat,

You've probably been asked this and may be a little tired of the question.
What kind of hoops do you need to jump through to be a gun collector in Australia? Is that S&W the only gun you own or do you have more?
It sucks that your govt took most of your guns away. Nobody should have to go through that.

-Erik

Gday fellah,
I have another three S&W pistols, two Victory models and a 686. Two Colt SSAA one in 45 Colt, the other in 44WCF. Plus a number of rifles. Mostly Lever-actions.

The Qld police are pretty good on the whole, you need to be licensed, background checks are carried out. Your name must not appear on the prohibited persons register in any Australian state or territory. Calibers above 38 you need a special endorsement on your licence, which is easily obtained, you have to provide evidence that you require the larger calibers, single action shooting is acceptable, metallic sihouette etc. We can own semi-autos up to 38 and 9mm including 357Sig, larger calibers you need to get a collecters licence for 40S&W or 45ACP, the gun then has to be stored in a temporary inoperative condition e.g. a trigger lock. I could own them, and put them down for field pistol metallic silhouette, thats also acceptable. No trigger lock required then. Go figure that logic if you can.
Basically they narrowed the playing field for what guns you could hold. You are allowed 2 pistols in any one caliber, you have to justify why you would need a third or fourth. Revolvers have to have barrel length minimum of 4 inches, semi autos 5 inches. Thats where most guns fell foul of Jackboot John Howards gun laws. The other persuasive tool he used against the States that were not keen to follow his edict was to withhold federal funding to those states and territories. Political blackmail, he was a nasty little man. The then premier of this great state of Queensland was a tosser and capitulated, never ever trust a politician friend.

This all came from the aftermath of the Port Arthur massacre. But never an enquiry was ever held as to how the perpetrator of these acts got hold of his weaponry. Some of his weapons had been handed in at a gun amnesty in the state of Victoria, they were supposed to have been destroyed, so how did they end up in Tasmania in Bryants hands, never been answered. Jackboot Johny claimed an in depth inquiry would be too painful for the relatives of those killed, so it never happened.
Johny never liked guns, but men with guns have a habit of laying down their lives for democracy and freedom, something he conveniently forgets. Didnt see him in VN in 1971.

To cut a long story short sir, we have it better than some, but not as good as others. The gunbashing fraternity in Australia are now silenced quite rapidly, we have shooter members in parliament now and the senate. We have started to grow politically strong. We do no business with those companies etc that are out to do us down. We support wholeheartedly those that support us. Responsible gun ownership is our aim.

Think you missread my blog name, its Ballarat not Ballrat, the citizens of Ballarat Victoria will probably put out a contract on you if you keep that up haha. All the best.
Rgds
Bob

 

[frankynohankypanky]

An addition to Bob's comments about our former Prime Minister; John Howard is on record as saying "I hate guns." At the 2000 Olympic Games in Sydney, Australian shotgunner Michael Diamond was shooting for a gold medal, which he did win. Who should be waiting in the wings for a photo opportunity but little Johnny. I saw it on TV and it's an image I, like many Australian firearms enthusiasts, won't forget.

That's an indication of what a hypocrite he was (is).

Australian shooters have performed well at recent Olympics and it has really helped our cause. The public has been able to see that we are not illiterate morons.

Frank S.
SWCA 2052.

 

[twaits]

Thanks Bob (BallArat),

It would be nice if you fine people of Australia could turn things around down there in favor of gun ownership. I saw the pictures of the piles of guns being destroyed. It made me sick. I've never been to Australia but from the movies I've seen I always sort of thought of it as a little like the western frontier in the US. A place where gun ownership should not only be allowed but be encouraged.
Anyhow, I raise my glass to you mate

-Erik

 

[Ballarat]

Thanks your replies guys. We are getting a little off the thread here, but years ago the Australian population as a rule was well versed in the use of firearms. The Japanese and it is documented were very reluctant to invade Australia from the North especially due to natural predators and the inhospitable country. Crocodiles, extremely venomous reptiles plus a population who could shoot the eye out of a Roo at a hundred yards or more. The tide is turning again, gunclub membership for both rifles and pistols is increasing once again. Gunownership slowly but surely in Australia today is on the increase, our political voice is becoming stronger. Any media attempts to stifle gunownership is now questioned and proof of their stories required. The media is also slowly waking up to the fact that gunowners are not rednecks and need a fair go. Feral distruction by shooting in national parks by members of the Australian shooters association has received good acclaim. We do it for no payment other than to preserve the native creatures. Goat culls pig culls and also native Roo culls must continue. The bambi brigade think roos should be protected, but they are in plague proportion in many parts of the country doing as much damage as their feral counterparts. John Howard, all I can say to John is never miss an opportunity to keep your mouth shut. Your opinion on anything you know nothing about is superflous.

 

[Ballarat]

Hi Gents,
Getting back to the original thread, I have just received my copy of the Charles W Pate book S&W American models, four months on order, but worth the wait. Ed Cornett I have identified the various stampings on my piece I will enlarge further when have time to really study the new information I have received. The pip mark on the ejector is a firing proof mark. The star stamped between the frame lockup lugs is the S&W assemblers/inspectors mark. The four squares/dashes are also mentioned, but have not researched that far yet, have just come off of four 12 hour nightshifts, so have not had time or mental capacity to read further.

Regards
Bob

 

[Ballarat]

Gday all,
Received today the letter from Roy Jinks it reads:
We have researched your Smith & Wesson model 3 Russian First Model, Russian Contract Reject, caliber .44 S&W Russian, revolver in company records which indicate that your handgun, with serial number 14308, was probably shipped from our factory on September 19, 1872, and delivered to M.W. Robinson, New York City, NY. This firearm was shipped with 8" barrel, blue finish, butt swivel, and smooth walnut grips. This revolver was inspected by Russian Inspectors at the factory rejected and the barrel restamped with English barrel marking. It is typical of a model produced in 1872.

Just wonder where it went from Robinsons, hope their old records are found one day. If you read this Ed, if there is a data base going on all these old models, feel free to include this one that has come to light after many years in the wilderness.