Russia's 'Pearl Harbor'

[mikerjf]

There’s some important things to consider in taking a position here:

1 Look up a map of NATO in 1990 during the German reunification - when Baker promised that NATO would “not move one inch to the east”. Then look at NATO today. Ask yourself “Who is ‘taking over Europe’”.

2 Read up on the 2014 Minsk agreement. Has one side failed to abide by it? (And find Angela Merkel’s recent comments, and then ask yourself why Putin might mistrust peace talks.)

3 Defend our countries actions during the Cuban missle crisis. Then criticize what Russia is doing. (BTW, Krushchev was Ukranian.)

4 Just a point of interest, as we approach our country’s 250th year:
How long has Ukraine been a country? (~32 years, IIRC)
How long were they part of Russia? (1,300+ years.)
What was the first capital of Russia? (Kiev)

Always good to know a little historical fact.

 

[dockmurgw]

Always good to know a little historical fact.

Yes it is...so here goes: Historically, people go to great lengths to escape a life of suffering and misery under the soviet/russian yoke, and that yoke is all putin has to offer.

 

[mikerjf]

I remember reading some electronics magazine back in the 1970’s, and there was a news snippet about something the Russian government was doing “to attract workers to Siberian industry”. Stopped and thought, wait, aren’t they totalitarians who just make people do what they want? Apparently not, but that’s sure what we’re told.

For those religion-minded, it’s really interesting to contrast Putin and Zelensky and what they’ve each done in that space.

 

[dockmurgw]

Yup, I believe every positive thing written about the soviets during the 70's...I also just purchased some prime ocean front property in Kansas.

 

[mikerjf]

Has anybody here seen the American press write anything false or slanted in the last few years? Good to know they are unfailingly accurate about Russia.

Not interested in stirring dissent so I’ll stop… but you are free to contest any of the points I listed. You do know how the Ukrainians in the Donbas voted in the seperation agreement, right? What their choice was?

 

[biku324]

There’s some important things to consider in taking a position here:

1 Look up a map of NATO in 1990 during the German reunification - when Baker promised that NATO would “not move one inch to the east”. Then look at NATO today. Ask yourself “Who is ‘taking over Europe’”.

2 Read up on the 2014 Minsk agreement. Has one side failed to abide by it? (And find Angela Merkel’s recent comments, and then ask yourself why Putin might mistrust peace talks.)

3 Defend our countries actions during the Cuban missle crisis. Then criticize what Russia is doing. (BTW, Krushchev was Ukranian.)

4 Just a point of interest, as we approach our country’s 250th year:
How long has Ukraine been a country? (~32 years, IIRC)
How long were they part of Russia? (1,300+ years.)
What was the first capital of Russia? (Kiev)

Always good to know a little historical fact

There’s some important things to consider in taking a position here:

1 Look up a map of NATO in 1990 during the German reunification - when Baker promised that NATO would “not move one inch to the east”. Then look at NATO today. Ask yourself “Who is ‘taking over Europe’”.

2 Read up on the 2014 Minsk agreement. Has one side failed to abide by it? (And find Angela Merkel’s recent comments, and then ask yourself why Putin might mistrust peace talks.)

3 Defend our countries actions during the Cuban missle crisis. Then criticize what Russia is doing. (BTW, Krushchev was Ukranian.)

4 Just a point of interest, as we approach our country’s 250th year:
How long has Ukraine been a country? (~32 years, IIRC)
How long were they part of Russia? (1,300+ years.)
What was the first capital of Russia? (Kiev)

Always good to know a little historical fact.

'Putin' and 'trust' do not belong in the same sentence.

1. NATO recruited no one. Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Poland, Finland, and Sweden petitioned to join NATO, the latter two after Putin invaded Ukraine.

2. There are 2 Minsk agreements on Ukraine - Minsk 1 (2014), Minsk 2 (2015), and the very fundamental 1991 Budapest Memorandum
on Security Assurances. Russia dictated the first two at the point of a gun, then violated them within hours by using proxy forces under Igor Strelkin to shell Ukrainian positions - this was reported and monitored by the OSCE. Russia violated the Budapest Memorandum by seizing Crimea in 2014.

3. Irrelevant.

4. Irrelevant.

 

[lihpster]

Seems they could have gotten more planes, but locals at one site kept some of the drones from deploying from the truck.

 

[biku324]

Has anybody here seen the American press write anything false or slanted in the last few years? Good to know they are unfailingly accurate about Russia.

Not interested in stirring dissent so I’ll stop… but you are free to contest any of the points I listed. You do know how the Ukrainians in the Donbas voted in the seperation agreement, right? What their choice was?

Horse manure. Voting in a occupied territory such as the Donbas is fake voting, Russian style. I just watched and helped monitor a more refined version in Georgia last October.

 

[pwberndt]

Or he falls down some stairs or out of a window.

I was thinking a hunting accident!

 

[lihpster]

The Soviet Union is gone but its ideology is still there, especially in those who were a part of the regime, like Mr. Putin. So, for historical fact about how the Soviet Union treated those under it's control, versus how the "Western" powers teated people under their control, look up the Berlin Airlift and the events which preceeded it. That's all I need to know about who's on the side of the angels.

 

[dockmurgw]

Horse manure. Voting in a occupied territory such as the Donbas is fake voting, Russian style. I just watched and helped monitor a more refined version in Georgia last October.

Voting as free and accurate as the Maduro landslide wins.

 

[mikerjf]

<<Voting in a occupied territory such as the Donbas is fake voting, Russian style.>>

Thank goodness that can’t happen here!

 

[biku324]

<<Voting in a occupied territory such as the Donbas is fake voting, Russian style.>>

Thank goodness that can’t happen here!

It can't only because elections are run by states and counties with no ultimate Federal election authority dictating how. In Georgia, there is a Central Election Commission that has all national voter data, trains and employs poll workers, and has little oversight. The CEC furnished voter party data to the Putin aligned Georgian Dream Party, led by Bidzina Ivanishvili (an oligarch whose wife 'owns' tens of millions of dollars of property in Moscow).

Georgian Dream organized with their office holders and local activists and the State Security Service of Georgia to ensure that public employees and anyone receiving government assistance got a visit from GD to encourage them to vote GD; those seemingly reluctant got follow-up visits from their employers and/or the SSSG. The most resistant had their voting documents siezed.

That is in addition to straight up vote buying at $30 (voters had to sneak in a cellphone and photo their marked ballot to get paid outside the polling place) and having groups of thugs waiting at polling place entrances to discourage non-GD voters.

Finally, polling place 'captains' had workers 'help' non-GD voters use the (very good) optical scan machine. They kept a tally of how many non-GD voted and did NOT mark the GD circle on the ballot - they then would contact GD to have them round up and bus in enough GD voters to just surpass the non-GD vote late in the day.

Try the above in 50 states, the District of Columbia, 26,000 counties, and a few hundred thousand precincts with no national election control agency.

God bless our fragmented system of democracy!

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

When it comes to elections worldwide the CIA knows the results first.

Proxy Wars keep American Billionaires rich.

In the USA a 1%er had a $350K/annual income in 2008. What is it in 2024? $750K.

I know I did not get a 100% Pay Raise. Did anyone here double their income from 2008?

Chelsea Clinton's net worth in 2024 is estimated to be around $20 million, according to some sources, with an additional $25 million from her husband, Marc Mezvinsky. NBC pays her $900K/annually.

 

[Exmilcop]

A question for those much more knowledgeable than me: How does this war get ended? Do either of these combatants (Putin and Zelenskeyy) have a serious interest in ending it or are the conditions each would demand just too far apart?

I'm a Ukrainian Canadian, ex soldier, with family and friends directly impacted by the conflict and, as such, I've been privy to some information that doesn't get spoken of too often. I could write several pages on the wherefore's and the why's but I'll just steal an oft repeated phrase; "If Russia stops fighting, there's no more war. If Ukraine stops fighting, there's no more Ukraine". This is a genocidal war on the part of Putin. There is ethnic cleansing happening in the occupied territories and most people are oblivious to the true horror of life under Russian rule if you're an ethnic Ukrainian. It's impossible to obtain exact figures but it's estimated that Russia has abducted over 100,000 Ukrainian children and is brainwashing them to be good little Russians and hate Ukraine. They are militarizing the children just like Hitler did with his "Hitler Jugend" groups. Rape, torture, murder, theft, extortion, and people just disappearing are the norm in the occupied territories. The moral centre that was so common among civilized people of my (and my father's) era seems to have been diluted or eliminated with the new social constructs. Look at the actions of the civilized world when Hitler, and Tojo, and Mussolini started their military fascist march into peaceful neighbours. Look how the free world responded! Where is that moral and physical courage today?

 

[biku324]

100% correct.^^^^^

 

[UncleEd]

Exmilcop has it 100 percent times a thousand percent.

Sadly some also see this war as purely dollars and cents and don't think Ukraine's freedom is worth a dime.

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

Don't like the title of this thread. Pearl Harbor was a sneak attach by a country with whom we were not at war. This was a strategic attack months in the planning by two war combatants. I do agree that this will all end very badly for all concerned if this foolishness is not shopped immediately. Given Putin is involved, I find this unlikely

 

[Tom S.]

'Putin' and 'trust' do not belong in the same sentence.

I beg to differ: "Do not trust Putin."

 

[dm1215]

Unless Russian mothers do to Putin in Ukraine what they did to Gorbachev in Afghanistan.

I guess those tires they placed on the aircraft's wings didn't help; they just helped them burn. lol