S and W 39 history questions

[SmithNut]

The relief cut under the safety definitely shows its a mid 70"s replacement,

Can you post a pic of the box cover?
Does it have the solid border or the newer rope style?
I don't know anything about the date stamps inside the box but if I had to venture a guess if the box is solid border the gun was sent back to SW in that box for repair and or refinish and the dates inside are when it was received (78) and when the different depts received it and did the repairs, again I'm just guessing here.
If the box has the rope border on the lid my bet is that it was returned from the factory in the then current style blue box of 78/79.
The magazines black plastic followers are from the 70's so hint that maybe they were provided from the factory with the gun when it was returned.

My closest Model 39 is Serial 68490 that shipped Oct 1966 so I'd guess your gun dates to about 68-69.

The box is the rope style, that helps me understand more about this gun's box.
It might just be a box that someone put together with this gun, or, as you surmise, it might be something the factory put it in for return after repair.
For sure the gun has not been refinished, there is zero evidence of any refinishing, no thin or washed out characters due to buffing, no date codes under the grips, etc.
It could also just be a box the previous owner put it in when he brought it to my dealer for consignment (?).
My curiousity about the red letters was to see how the original guns were shipped to the ISP, and I've not heard any solid explanation on how they would have bulk shipped the original guns, but the information about the later rope style box helps understand the originality (or not )

Thanks to all for all the assistance on my questions....

 

[Engine49guy]

Your welcome, there are members that probably follow the 39 evolution much closer so interested to hear their observations.
Btw I updated my last post to note that I believe the stocks are mid 70's as well due to their color, theres no way to prove it unless they were date stamped inside but my 1966 and 1955 versions have dark wood stocks.

Lastly, if it were my gun I would be torn between leaving it as is because the updates are part of its history or finding correct era safety lever, hammer, mag release and stocks to put it back to period correct, either way its a very interesting gun,
Thanks for sharing it!

 

[gmborkovic]

Brad, all your observations are spot on. I never thought about the grips, as they got swapped out all the time. All my early stuff does have dark walnut grips. I guess in the 70s they used a more common, cheaper "pallet" grade
of wood. A more orange color. Just look at your 19s, and note the grip color and quality from early to later models.

 

[gmborkovic]

Brad, all your observations are spot on. I never thought about the grips, as they got swapped out all the time. All my early stuff does have dark walnut grips. I guess in the 70s they used a more common, cheaper "pallet" grade
of wood. A more orange color. Just look at your 19s, and note the grip color and quality from early to later models.

 

[Engine49guy]

Mr Mike, do you have a 1968-69 Model 39 no dash box in your collection?
If so does it have a solid border or rope style?
I would expect a solid border but I guess it depends on when the change over occurred and when they ran out of the older style boxes, thinking 68-69 is close to the change but have no examples.

 

[gmborkovic]

Yea, an 86K NIB, solid boarder, no Bangor. And an 89K NIB no Bangor.
Both correct white labeled.

 

[ispcapt]

Now wondering, if it has no "A" Serial prefix and no hole in the hammer which style ejector does it have?

On the front of the dust cover is the ISP inventory stamp. That was only done on the 39. By the time the 39-2 was being issued the state had done away with requiring those inventory numbers.

Ps. Are the magazine followers the old style metal figure 8 or are they the newer black plastic style?

Extra mags were grab whatever was in the box at the range. That led to a lot of mixing of what was originally shipped with the gun and what was eventually sold with the gun.
Additionally, when we went from 39 to 439 we could buy our 39s. The X follower mags were a hot item for those of us with the 39-nothing. So when we bought our 39s if we could find mags with the X followers we swapped out our plastic follower mags.
That most likely being one of the spare guns its original X follower mags could have been traded out before it was sold.

My closest Model 39 is Serial 68490 that shipped Oct 1966 so I'd guess your gun dates to about 68-69.

His gun would have been one of the first original 39 shipments in 1967 or early 1968. Guns were stamped with the inventory number when they were received from S&W. My 39 is stamped 998. His is 1226. Since there were about 1500 sworn in 1968 the 1226 would have been in one of the first shipments.

When we went to the 439 in 1981 if we wanted to buy our 39 then it was tagged and held until all the 439s were in the field. Then we would take delivery of our 39. When I turned in my 39 for holding until delivery I did not have a box. After my 39 was issued to me I stored my box in the basement. A flood got the box and I pitched it. So no box when I turned it in but when I finally got my 39 back it was in a S&W box. I have no idea where the range guys got the new box. Either they had stored away, gotten from other guns, or gotten them directly from S&W. I'm sure I wasn't the only guy who turned in their 39 with no box so they would have had a bunch laying around.
Even with the spare guns there's no way to know for certain if an unmarked box was the original or one someone had swapped out over the years.

 

[SG-688]

Full flap holster made by Service Mfg of Younkers, NY. I have a left hand version. Been searching for a right hand for years and have never found one.

A picture please.......

The left handed holsters must be rare. I've been searching for a photo for years.

The ones I remember were forward-raked, straight-draw rather than cross draw for uniformity of appearance and to gain the left-side security advantages of the righty cross draw.

A local trooper said at the time that the trooper hit in the strong side shoulder with the .25 was left handed, so he would have had to do that funny dance to draw from the issue left-hand holster.

For a time surplus regular cross-draw holsters as later made by S&W Leather were a dime-a-dozen. All were in poor condition as the Clarino aged and cracked.

 

[Engine49guy]

Very interesting information,
It's good to document these things so we don't lose them as time goes on.

Do you have any observations that contradict that from the posted pics appears that this 1968 era gun went back to the factory and was rebuilt with the then current style parts used in 1978-79.

Ps thank you for your service.

 

[PJO1425]

Mr. Smithnut,
I just got home from a fishing trip. I'll try to get back to you ASAP, hopefully today.

 

[PJO1425]

Mr. Smithnut,
I just got home from a fishing trip. I'll try to get back to you ASAP, hopefully today.

 

[ispcapt]

Do you have any observations that contradict that from the posted pics appears that this 1968 era gun went back to the factory and was rebuilt with the then current style parts used in 1978-79.

Most likely if the hammer swap out was done while with the ISP it was done at our main range which at the time was at the State Fairgounds, Springfield. I don't recall hearing any guns being sent back to the factory for any work. Anytime a gun needed work it was done by our range guys.
The ISP at that time was a lot different than most law enforcement agencies in that regard. If a PD had gun trouble they sent it back to the factory. We didn't. Our guys did the work. They were good at it. Their input resulted in a lot of the changes being done between the 39, 39-2, 2nd gen, and 3rd gen guns.
Swapping out hammers was common when we went to 469/6904. If an SA could convince his range officer to do it there was the few 469/6904 sporting a spurred hammer. Not a lot of them like that but a few.
The swapped out hammer could have also been done after it left the ISP. That 39 would have left inventory in 82. Unknown where it's been in the last 40 years. I definitely wouldn't read too much in to it that it was an ISP swap. Could have been an ISP swap but the ISP only had possession of it 15 years and it appears during that time it set in a closet as a spare. It's been out in wild almost 3 times longer than the ISP owned it. Who knows where it's been or what the owner(s) did to it or why.
This one is mine. It's had a lot of rounds downrange. Our range guys tuned the action for me and it's a real joy to shoot. One of my grandkids has already put his name on it.
The grips were swapped out when we got rid of the 1st gen guns. They came off one of the spares that was in inventory. My original grips were worn smooth or at least the right side panel was.

 

[PJO1425]

Hello,
I recently purchased a very nice Illinois State Police M39. It came in a 2 piece blue box (period correct) that has no end label.
Was wondering if anyone knows how the guns were shipped to the ISP, were they in bulk? Were they in blue boxes, and if so did they have the typical S&W label of the time.
The box my gun came in, while it has no label, it has date codes stamped on the inside of the box top in red ink. There is a date code stamp from an old office date tool from back in the day, the date is May 30, 1979, and someone used a red pencil type marker writing 3/6/78 as well.
I'm curious to know if S&W shipped the M39's in bulk in blue boxes but without taking the time to put individual labels on each box as we see on commercial guns.
Here's a pic of the box top stamping:

Thanks, in advance....

I dug out the box that my Model 39 (#838xx.....#415 (inventory number) is etched in the barrel) was issued to me in the ISP academy in 1968. It is a blue-gray color (maybe from fading?) & has metal reinforcements at each corner. A piece of masking tape with my name on it is stuck to the right side of the lid. It has an end label, but the info (barrel length, finish, etc.) is too faded to read. There is no info or writing in the inside of the cover, other than a statement of liability & warranty info dated April 15, 1955. The box that I received this pistol in after I bought it back (1980-ish) is a bright medium blue (with metal reinforcements at the corners. "Buy Back" is written on the lid with a marker pen, and there is an "X" (marker pen) on the S&W logo. The inside of the lid is blank (no writing or info). No end label on this box.

 

[SmithNut]

PJO1425,
Thank you for the info on your box, and with the knowledge that it had a lable on it tells me (maybe) that others before & after may have had them as well.

ispcapt, Engine49guy, gmborkovic and others;
I have learned a bunch reading from your posts, really appreciate the responses and info, I'm really impressed with the knowledge here, I just may need to hang out in the Semi-Auto Pistol area more often...

Knowing that ISP armorers did their own work is really interesting. So, I have an additional question, if my M39 has a later hammer (no hole) for whatever reason, and it was replaced by an ISP armorer, what would be the reason given that this gun is in such good (non-issued?) condition?

I ask because if my gun wasn't issued and sitting in inventory, then I would guess that it was fully functional - or - is there is a process that guns in inventory were "tested" regularly and if something was found to be defective, they'd make repairs and put it back in inventory?

Just trying to wrap my head around the no-hole hammer and the later style (M59) safety lever.

Thanks again for the great information, if you have any perspective as to why these parts, being later production, would find them onto this gun. I suppose that could have been done by more recent owners possibly (and for unknown reasons)...??

Would love your thoughts.

 

[Engine49guy]

Think we are all learning quite a bit about the ISP Model 39's from this thread,

That is exactly what I'm wondering, why would someone totally rebuild a like new gun, that us why I initially speculated it went back for a full rebuild.

 

[ispcapt]

Knowing that ISP armorers did their own work is really interesting. So, I have an additional question, if my M39 has a later hammer (no hole) for whatever reason, and it was replaced by an ISP armorer, what would be the reason given that this gun is in such good (non-issued?) condition?
I ask because if my gun wasn't issued and sitting in inventory, then I would guess that it was fully functional - or - is there is a process that guns in inventory were "tested" regularly and if something was found to be defective, they'd make repairs and put it back in inventory?
Just trying to wrap my head around the no-hole hammer and the later style (M59) safety lever.

It is possible it could have been initially issued but for some reason had a function problem. When the 39 was issued there was a transition training since prior to the Troops carried revolvers. This is purely speculation now what I'm going to write. If the 39 had functioning problems when issued it would not likely have been worked on right then. The range guys would have taken it in and issued a replacement. And then it would have set on a shelf. At a later date a range officer could have pulled it off and dug in to it to see what the problem. If it was a sear notch or such instead of recutting the notch they would have replaced the hammer and adjusted it. Then it could have either set at the main range or sent to a district as spares.
Particularly at the initial issue there were some who had a trust issue with going to autos. If you were one of those and the 39 you were issued was having problems then that could be a reason why you didn't get your problem 39 back. If it wouldn't run 100% during transition training then the confidence factor might be lacking. So you got a new gun and yours was put on a shelf.
When we went to the 439 and the 39 was taken out of service there were quite a few NIB 39s turned in from the districts. Those spares were never fired unless a Troop had their issued gun go down or if it was used in a shooting. Then the spare was brought out and issued to the Troop. Other than that those 39s just sat in district HQs around the state and at the main range in Springfield. No need to drag them out and shoot them.
Again, simply speculation.
When we issued PPK to senior command some of those wouldn't run 100% so instead of working on them right then that gun would have been pulled from issue and a different one issued. Then when one of the range guys had time or was in a tinkering mood he'd drag the PPK out and dig into it.
However, with a 59 safety lever that makes me think all the swapping was done after it left the ISP. The ISP never issued or bought any 59s. By the time we went to double stacks the 39s were long gone.

That is exactly what I'm wondering, why would someone totally rebuild a like new gun, that us why I initially speculated it went back for a full rebuild.

If it was sent back to S&W for a rebuild then it was not done by the ISP. That was just not done. If a gun became totally unserviceable where the range guys couldn't make it run then it was pulled from service and put on a shelf and the Troop was issued a different gun. If a gun was in such condition that it needed a rebuild the ISP was not going to send it back and then reissue it. That was not done.
One has to understand what was going on in the late 60s and into the 70s. The ISP range guys new as much about the 39 as the S&W guys. There was no need to send a gun back for a rebuild. The main range was a fully equipped machine shop where they worked on whatever needed done. There was a S&W rep who use to hang around our main range so much that for a while I thought he was one of our guys. I eventually learned he was just one of the S&W guys pretty much assigned to us full time. Our range guys are the ones who worked to develop the mods to become the 39-2 and then the 2nd and 3rd gen guns. Louie Seman, Homer Clark, Bash Ulrich, Bob Capelli, a few others. Those guys were A#1 gun guys who knew how things worked.
More speculation why the newer hammer and safety - who ever bought it after we sold it did a kitchen table butcher job on it which resulted in needing new parts.
But we simply did not send guns back for rebuilds. No need to do that. Just pull another off the shelf and put the broken gun away.

 

[Engine49guy]

Very interesting,

Btw to be clear when the Model 59 was initially introduced the factory had to relieve the 59 frame to clear the safety lever,
By making a relief cut under the safety lever the factory no longer had to make relief cuts on the 59 frame, both the 39-2 and 59 used the same safety lever after about 1972- 73 ish
By relieving the safety the Model 39-2 slide will work on the non relieved 59 frames,
On the other hand if you try to fit a 39(nd) slide to a mid 70's non relieved 59 frame the safety lever will strike the wider 59 frame.

Here's a link to a non relieved 59 frame

https://dygtyjqp7pi0m.cloudfront.net/i/19082/18328890_2.jpg?v=8D0CEE638EE2110

Here's a link to an early relieved 59 frame

https://dygtyjqp7pi0m.cloudfront.net/i/23569/21581956_5.jpg?v=8D2143BB8A6DAF0

 

[SmithNut]

Thanks again for the information....

I'll just have to think of this ISP M39 as "a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside in an enigma"...

.............SmithNut

 

[toddimusnimski]

Extra mags were grab whatever was in the box at the range. That led to a lot of mixing of what was originally shipped with the gun and what was eventually sold with the gun.
Additionally, when we went from 39 to 439 we could buy our 39s. The X follower mags were a hot item for those of us with the 39-nothing. So when we bought our 39s if we could find mags with the X followers we swapped out our plastic follower mags.
That most likely being one of the spare guns its original X follower mags could have been traded out before it was sold.

Great thread, I love hearing fist-hand accounts that won't likely be found anywhere else. Glad you're a member and sharing this history.
I picked these up a while ago while looking for 39-2 mags. Seller probably didnt know exactly what they were but likely tried them in a 3906 they had on hand, so they sold them as such. They hardly look used at all. It's fun to imagine where they've travelled all those years

 

[gmborkovic]

I cant see the base plates. Are they 9MM/S&W? or just S&W? Stamped.