S&W 1899 M&P Story

[DEL56]

About 5 years ago, I was looking to purchase a S&W 1899 M&P to shoot at our National Congress of Old West Shooters (NCOWS) reenactment matches. I looked for two years before I found the first ones at the Indy 1500 Gun Show for sale. I found and purchased two at that show. One is a US Navy issue 1899 M&P, and the other was blued with serial #7676 with a star behind the serial #.

I knew the star meant it had been serviced by S&W.

Mike Priwer was doing a survey on the barrel caliber roll markings for the S&W 1899 M&P model a while back and I sent him the information on all the 1899’s I had at that time. Mike quickly contacted me about #7676 because it did not have the caliber roll mark on it for 38 S&W Special but it fell within the range of guns which should have had the caliber roll mark.

We began to examine this pistol more closely. We had several discussions to begin figuring this out. The first thing that Mike noticed was that the serial # on the barrel had a different script and it was in the opposite direction from normal.

There is also a <B> in front of the serial # on the barrel. So it was initially thought that the barrel may have been replaced. We looked under the grips and there was a date stamp of 12.21.28 under the left grip.

This revolver had been serviced at S&W on that date. There was also a <B> under the grips which could mean it was a blued gun, or that the barrel had been replaced. That is where we left it for a while. All the serial #’s matched on the gun.

I kept shooting the gun and thought that was the end of matters. Then a few months ago I noticed something that both Mike Priwer and I had been overlooking in this saga. I shot it at a match and started cleaning it. As I was wiping down the barrel I felt something move. It was the front sight. This made me quite curious and I looked at it more closely. It was a half moon target sight on a target barrel.

I quickly took a picture of it and sent it to Mike Priwer. This got us both quite curious to know if this was done on 12.21.28, or was it done in the S&W Service Department before the gun was shipped?. Being a member of the Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation (S&WHF), we contacted them to see if they had any service records on this S&W #7676. We received some interesting information from them. The pistol was sent in for service from a Magic City Gun & Key Shop which was owned by a W. F. Mathis. This shop had mistakenly sent this gun to Remington Arms Co.

Remington Arms then forwarded the pistol on to S&W.

The repair estimate slip from S&W quoted a price to reblue it and that they no longer had the cylinder stop available to fix that.

The last letter from Magic City Gun & Key shop was authorizing payment for the quoted repairs.

I know that #7676 has some interesting history so far and it has peeked my interest to want more. Any information on Magic City Gun & Key Shop in Miami, FL during this 1928 time frame would be helpful. I am not sure if this was one of their own guns, or were they servicing this for a customer? I called a Magic City Gun Shop in Miami,FL, but they are in the process of closing up and they were not associated with the old one. So they had no records on this gun.
I did find out from Roy Jinks that this gun was shipped from S&W in October of 1900.

If any of you can provide additional information, suggestions, or comments on #7676, I sure would appreciate it. Thanks!

 

[glowe]

I cannot make out one word in the handwritten note "Cannot furnish ???? for this old model"? Sorry, missed your comment about the cylinder stop.

Here is my guess on what was done to the gun. It has a diamond on the barrel which usually means replacement. The diamond on the butt, however, would not indicate a replacement of the frame??? The gun was refinished in blue and assume that was the original finish.

Looking at the front sight, the insert is not a target blade configuration, so maybe someone had filed or ground the sight and the owner wanted it returned to the correct shape??? Or, maybe the replacement blade is higher than the original to make the gun more accurate??? Last guess is that the barrel was laying around the factory and the front sight blade was damaged or missing???

I find the Model 1899 a fascinating gun and love to shoot mine.

 

[mikepriwer]

Gary

I agree that the barrel was replaced, for at least two reasons. One is the <> mark, and the other is the font of the barrel serial number AND the number orientation : the barrel has to point left, instead of right. Additionally, the serial number on the back of the cylinder uses the same font as the number under the barrel, suggesting that the cylinder also was replaced. We're still awaiting pictures, but the font of the serial number on the extractor is the original early style ( as is the butt) , wherein the '7' has a wavy top!

Regards, Mike

 

[daddio202]

I can not help you Del with any information about the shop but I would just like to be heard with an observance of mine. Normally the stamp would be of month and year on the left grip frame. I have an M&P that was sent back in 1911 and the stamp reads 11.11. So just maybe thinking it so unusual they stamped an exact day that maybe your gun went back twice. The first time on 12.21 being December 1921 and the second time they just stamped a 28 for 1928 as we know that was the year dated on the correspondence from the key shop. Is this a possibility they just added a year to the stamping? This is just a theory of mine?????? What say you??

 

[glowe]

You got something there. I was looking at the numbers and was trying to decide if there were two distinct dates, but there were not enough numbers Those multiple returns where I was able to see dates always used a month and year for each time the gun went back, so why would this stamping be different? I guess the worker in the service center just saw no need to add the month to the 28 since the gun was returned in December both timess??

 

[mikepriwer]

I looked at the dates on the letters that went back and forth, and last letter to Smith & Wesson from the gun shop is dated Dec 2 1928. The letter from Remington to the factory is dated Nov 21 1928, and it says the gun was being shipped express. This letter has a received stamp of Nov 22, or it could be a day or two later. I doubt it would take longer than a week or 10 days for the gun shop letter to get to the factory, and it probably got there sooner. 12.21 is, as suggested, probably not a date, but rather it was Dec of 1921. What looks like 12.21.28 is probably, in fact, two dates: Dec 1921 and Dec 1928.

The Historical Foundations records go back only to 1920. Perhaps the records for the first trip back (in 1921) have been lost.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[mikepriwer]

From the previous message, and on the other hand, here is the calendar for December 1928. Dec 21, 1928 was a Friday, so I suppose that is still a possibility !

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[handejector]

The diamond on the butt, however, would not indicate a replacement of the frame???

My opinion:
The <B> seen on barrels and frames was applied by the Service Dept so that the Finishing Dept would know two things-
1- The finish was to be blue
2- Those parts were to be returned to the Service Dept and NOT the regular production area.

Looking at the front sight, the insert is not a target blade configuration, so maybe someone had filed or ground the sight and the owner wanted it returned to the correct shape??? Or, maybe the replacement blade is higher than the original to make the gun more accurate??? Last guess is that the barrel was laying around the factory and the front sight blade was damaged or missing???

I'm sure Mike has seen some M&Ps with pinned half moons. I've seen several over the years on guns that had NO indication of service or refinishing.
Since it is not quoted in the repair estimate, it is unlikely that it was done at that time. It could have shipped that way.
The only explanation that makes sense for the guns I have observed is that those frugal yankees did it to salvage a barrel that had a damaged front sight.

So just maybe thinking it so unusual they stamped an exact day that maybe your gun went back twice.

I do not think so.

I have seen dozens of guns marked with the month, day, and year.
IMO, the Op's gun went back once, and was dated 12. 21.28

Note that the dots are not round. They usually are. Those two dots were made at the same time with the same punch that was not round.

Here is one-

When a gun made multiple trips to the Service Dept, they simply found a place to stamp the date. Here is one that went back in May, 47 and again in Dec, 52. Notice the guy forgot the dot in the 47 date--

The date stamps vary. The guy did it like he wanted to do it. Period.
.
.
.

 

[mikepriwer]

Lee

Appreciate your insights and comments. Like your example, the two punch dots on 7676 are virtually identical, and nowhere near round. They are approaching a triangular shape. It probably is one date in the mm.dd.yy format.

Yes - I've seen several early 1902's with a pinned half-moon front sight blade. I even owned a nickel factory engraved early 1902 in 32-20.

The issue about whether the barrel (and cylinder) have been replaced, stems from the observation of the serial number fonts, and the orientation of the serial number on the barrel flat - particularly for 1899's. All of my 1899's that I believe to be factory-original exhibit the same font for the butt, cylinder, barrel, and extractor star, and the barrel serial number reads with the barrel pointing to the right. Its also my observation that the guns with a 6" barrel, which was special order, all show the barrel serial number with the barrel pointing left, as do guns that went back to the factory for a barrel change.

I take this to mean that, for barrels installed in the service department, the barrel serial numbers read with the barrel pointing left, and are always placed about in the middle of the flat, whereas the placement is right up against the frame for standard original barrels. I believe that the 6" barrels were installed in the service department, as would be replaced barrels.

In the case of this 7676 revolver, one of the pictures shows the extractor star. Note that at least one of the extractor finger recess's in the cylinder is not contoured properly, suggesting that the cylinder is a replacement but the extractor itself is original to the gun; it has the same early font as the butt serial number.

Do you have an opinion about the orientation of the barrel serial number, and also about the consistency of the numbering font ?

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[mikepriwer]

Gary, et al

On the subject of the date stamp on the grip frame, I posted the question to Roy on the S&WCA side of the forum. Roy, Lee Jarrett and David Carroll all agree that it means Dec 21 1928. So, that is that.

Regards, Mike

 

[handejector]

Mike,
I agree that the fonts should match on all parts. That has been my observation.


On location and orientation of barrel numbers-
I only have one 1899 at present. It is an 1899 Army, 13685. Of course it is a 6", and the barrel number is close against the frame and is read with barrel pointing right.

I've never owned a 6" that was not an Army, so I can't speak to the barrel number orientation. I have owned several other 1899s, but I don't have pics and honestly don't remember the barrel number orientation, but fonts matched.

 

[mikepriwer]

Lee

Thank you. Appreciate your comments.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[glowe]

Checked five 1899s, one of them 6", and all barrel serial numbers are oriented the same as Lee's image. Serial numbers ranged from 7XX to 19,XXX, so early to late production. My earliest Model 1902, 28,XXX is the other way, so maybe the orientation changed with the model change??

Sorry, but after the upload downsizing and the image displaying too small, I cannot read any of the serial numbers.

 

[mikepriwer]

Gary

It looks like the top nickel gun is the 6"? All the serial numbers (circled in red) appear to be right next to the frame ? Are all the fonts used in the serial numbers the same, with the 5's and 7's having a wavy top, like the 5 on Lee's gun ?

That's a wonderful picture - thanks for taking the time to put it together.

Regards, Mike

 

[glowe]

Both the nickel guns are 6.5". The serial numbers on the butt and the barrel have wavy 5s and 7s and all are tight to the frame. The guns are as follows:

6.5" - 38 - 6057
6.5" - 32 - 3805
4" - 32 - 776
4" - 38 - 19759
6" Army - without picture, but original barrel has no 5s or 7s.

 

[glowe]

I ran across another one in the safe and that is the one I should have detailed. It is a 6" and it has the replaced barrel with 38 MIL stamped and a diamond with "B" inside. That would mean replaced barrel and reblue, but no date on the butt. Serial number is turned over and has no wavy numbers. It is also centered in the flat.