S&W #2 Old Army Japanese Markings

[mnrivrat]

Sorry I can't do pictures but I have a Old Army that the story goes was acquired at the battle for Okinawa in WW2 . It has most of its finish gone but is mechanically very good , very little play in the hinge and a worn but mirror bore.


The stocks have been carved into a corral pattern and lacquered to a salmon or corral color. The back strap is marked with Japanese writing .


My question is does this gun increase or decrease in value because of the Japanese heritage and markings ? Or is just another Old Army revolver.


The bring back story is without documentation so I recognize it is just a story and has no monetary value. So I am just asking about the heritage only. I have not gotten an interpretation of the markings yet, but assume they tell the year, armory where registered type thing. Any comments would be appreciate.

PS: I quess I can do a picture

 

[rct269]

A wise soul once said, "Buy the gun, not the story.".

Another one said, "Then again, it all depends on what the story is.".

At such time as you have the translation of the writing on the back strap, you might want to repeat your question----or ask a different one----or an additional one---or six or eight.

In the meantime------------------------have a nice day.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[opoefc]

S&W shipped a lot of S&W Model 2 Armies to Japan. 1st thing you should do, is get a factory letter for the gun to verify, or not, shipment to Japan. The back strap stampings may. or may not, be Japanese. All the Japanese shipped S&Ws I am familiar with have the stampings on the side of the frame or the barrel, and they are the military or prefectures stamps, and are in "Old" Japanese that is difficult to translate by modern Japanese speakers. My guess that your gun's backstop stamping may be Chinese, which does not conflict with the story of the gun's origin being Okinawa, a Japanese soldier may well have acquired the gun in China.( Japanese Ordnance Supply was not loaded with .32RF ammo inWW2 ) ( One of my buddies picked up a Colt SAA from a North Korean KIA in the Korean war - Go Figure ! ) Ed.

 

[mnrivrat]

Thanks guys for your input. As I mentioned I know you don't pay for a story. I guess I must of heard the same wise man speak.

I never thought of the idea that the writing may be Chinese.

I had read that a lot of orders for number 2's went to Japan via Europe .


I am not sure it is worth the cost of a letter to find out whether it was originally shipped to Japan unless that would add value. I paid less than $300 for the gun so figure it should always be worth that. I also have some ammo for it that my brother had picked up at a garage sale. It is clean ammo made in Canada but I haven't shot the gun yet. Maybe it is because the prices I see for the stuff makes it pretty spendy to shoot.


I think my next step is to verify if the writing is as you say Chinese or Japanese . However my question is in general regarding if there is any reason to believe that this gun is more or less valuable than any average Old Army in same like condition.

 

[glowe]

To anyone who collects S&W, there is no such thing as an unusual gun that is not worth the cost of a factory letter. The true value in collecting vintage S&W revolvers is learning the history, provenance, form and function and where it fits with the gun you are researching. If you were not interested in the Model 2s history, you would probably not started this thread.

You owe it to the gun that is temporally in your possession to document its pedigree wherever possible, for your knowledge and for the continuing education of the members here and future owners as well. It should not be difficult to obtain a translation of the engraving. I think it looks more like Chinese than Japanese as Ed stated that possibility or maybe even Korean?? Take a very clear picture of the butt-frame and contact any Asian-American organization, museum, etc.

Check out this link as it has some good basic differences between these written scripts. Your image is not clear enough to make out much detail. How to tell written Chinese, Japanese and Korean apart

 

[mm93]

I think in general modifications like this take away value. But I would also have the markings translated first, and then whatever is revealed may change your mind as to whether you get a factory letter or not.
Translation of the markings, and an interesting factory letter may be a game changer as to whether the mods are good or bad to it's value.

 

[mmaher94087]

Have the characters translated. It may reveal the Prefecture or place it was sent and the Rack number or gun number for inventory. I have had three translated. One went to the Yokohama Naval Base, one to the Shimaneken Prefecture and one to the Hiroshima Prefecture. They all had Rack or gun numbers and dates.

 

[opoefc]

MNrivrat, I have a data base of most of the serial numbers of S&Ws shipped to Japan and how they were marked by the Japanese, etc. If you tell me your serial number, I can check to see if it's listed. My data base also has all the types of Japanese markings used on S&Ws shipped to Japan, or acquired from the Russians by Japan in the Jap-Russian war, I have compared your markings to the markings shown in the data base. No match, however some of the symbols, such as the 3 horizontal lines translate to the number "30" in Japanese as well as most Chinese dialects. Most Japanese writing has curved lines. Your stampings are mostly straight lines, however that maybe because who ever stamped the gun did not have a tool to stamp, or cut, curved lines. I'm still leaning to the stampings being Chinese, not Japanese. Ed. ( S&W factory letters for Japan shipped guns do not alway verify that, as some went to distributors in other places, such as Australian dealers, that were acting as agents for the Japanese. Such guns, with Japanese prefecture or military/naval stamps are considered by collectors to be authentic Japanese S&Ws. )

 

[mnrivrat]

Again I thank all for their input. It is deeply appreciated .

I have attached 3 backstrap photo's to try to make the characters clearer. The serial number is 62846


I looked at the mentioned site on how to tell the difference between Japanese, Chinese, and Korean. To my eye the writing appears to be Japanese.

Keith

 

[glowe]

Still would be hard for an expert to interpret all the characters. One option for making the characters more visible would be to take some black latex hobby paint and paint the characters, let dry and remove the paint from the back-strap with your fingernail leaving it in the engraving. It is very easy to remove with soapy water and a hard bristle toothbrush. Have you had the stocks off? The stocks may not be original rosewood that was carved, but rather some other material? If the stocks are original, the right one would have a serial number stamped inside.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

You might want to give a free online translation a try.


Actually that won't work unless the picture is converted to text. There is an Android app that will translate from a picture but I can't get it to work with the pictures you have posted. Perhaps you would have more success using the engraving rather than a picture.

 

[opoefc]

Serial # 62846 does fall within a number of Model 2 Armies sent to Japan, by either the factory or a distributor. 62565 is the nearest number in my data base and it is stamped "1872/413/ Armory Administration" in Japanese, however none of that stamping's Japanese characters match any on the poster's gun's back strap. Of the approx. 200 Model 2s in my data base, none are stamped on the back strap. Most are stamped on the frame, cylinder or barrel. In the early 1870s there were over 300 Prefectures in Japan, each with it's own stamp for firearms, however by 1873 the combination of Prefectures reduced their numbers to about 70. Since the "story" for this Model 2 mentioned Okinawa, I have compared the stampings of the Okinawa Prefecture to the back strap. No match of any of the characters for Okinawa. Ed

 

[gmborkovic]

As an antique gun collector, you have to love this gun. It has everything.
Most of all mystery.

 

[mnrivrat]

To answer Glowe's question , yes I have had the stocks off and they are marked with the serial number on the RH side. Another part of the mystery of this gun is that the serial number has been moved from the bottom of the grip and stamped in small numbers on the side of the frame under the stock. The bottom of the grip now has this OTTO B. 50 stamped across it. I'm thinking that was done by whoever acquired the gun from its Japanese source ? The gun is also marked on the frame, cylinder, and barrel assembly with a small GG6 which should be assembly numbers I think.
A lot of good input from you folks. It will likely take me a bit of time to absorb, and due to very poor health, that at times puts me in bed for numbers of days, please except my apology if my follow up is or gets slow. Thanks again to all, and keep whatever thoughts you might have coming

Keith

 

[opoefc]

Can you post photos of the stamps on the butt and side of the frame? The GG6 is the assembly code number. What is the evidence the serial number has been moved? Is the grip frame shorter because it has been ground down? S&W did stamp serial numbers on the left grip frame occasionally, but usually due to damage to the butt part of the frame. Are there any other markings of any kind anywhere else on the gun, other than the butt & back strap and , I assume, the usual S&W factory stamp on the barrel rib? I have asked a fellow S&W collector, whose lovely wife is Japanese, to ask her if she can translate the markings, or confirm they are old style Kanji marks. Ed.

 

[mnrivrat]

I am presently not set up to take photo's. Sorry, I bought a new camera some time ago but due again to health issues I have not even removed it from its box. (I have been non functional/worthless of late)

The ones I have posted were provided to me by the person I purchased the gun from. The top rib is marked " Smith & Wesson.Springfield.Mass. "
After purchase I have replaced the front sight blade with a brass insert, and I found, and purchased, an original ejector rod and screw.

Cylinder is marked " Patented April 3,1855,July 5,1859, ????,18,1860."
( There is some light pitting at the point in the cylinder obscuring the month that I show as ????)

All lettering is upper case. There are no other markings on the gun.


The butt of the grip frame shows filing marks , the bottom of the stocks are not proud of the metal . I am posting the last of the photos I have for now.

 

[Tom Kent]

In my opinion you have an interesting gun and a piece of history. The markings on the back of the grip frame could also be a poetic phrase or a name of a previous owner. Hope you find out and post your findings here for the rest of us to share.

 

[mnrivrat]

I am going to keep trying to ID the writing. Some here have referred to stamped characters. I have taken another close look at the backstrap under magnification and two things have stood out to me. One is that all characters look to be hand engraved. I don't think they were stamped.


The second thing is that there are what appear as straight file cross lines covering the back strap. These look to have been done after the characters were cut into the back strap. The character at the very top of the back strap looks to have been partly filed away rather than worn.


It is anybody's guess what this means. It could have been done at the time the characters were hand engraved in order to remove burrs from the engraver tool , or it could have been done later to remove rust ? My gut says that they smoothed the back strap to remove metal standing up from the chisel engraving. No sign of general rust - a little very light rust near the bottom that I easily whipped off with a little oil and 0000 steel wool.

Trying to be fully realistic, to me that would also bring a possibility that someone tried to fake a gun and story. That however leaves the stocks with the carving which do not look like anything recently done at all. (neither does the engraving)


If a fake was attempted here, it sure did not work out well because the price I paid was perhaps 1/2 of what the gun in non modified condition should go for.


My opinion at this time is that all is genuine and the modifications were made in Japan prior to WW2 . I just wanted to share a couple more details that I suppose are once again part of the mystery, and I am aware that folks also do things to try to add value to what they sell.


So far it looks like the gun was shipped to Japan according to opoefc's records. It also looks like there are no military or registration marks on the gun. The military would have not let someone modify the grips in that manner (at least I think not) So the guns history is dependent mostly on a translation. Who knows what happened to this gun from the time of the early 1870's to WW2 ? It would certainly not be a military issued item in the 1940's , yet if the story is true it was in service by some Japanese soldier as likely a family item like many of the swords that passed from generation to generation.


PS: I stated previously that after reviewing the web site on how to tell the different writing of Korea , China, and Japan, that to my eye it looks to be Japanese. To a more trained eye it may be possible that it is Chinese but I don't think so. I am 90% confident the writing is Japanese. - I can always be wrong to . It is definitely not Korean.

 

[glowe]

Have you ordered the letter yet?

People use stamping/engraving as meaning the same in many instances and no pictures you have yet provided indicated one or the other. Besides, it does not make a difference, since the Japanese were certainly capable of doing either.

It is not certain your gun was shipped anywhere without the letter and Ed stated only that it was in the serial number range of some Model 2s that went to Japan. Ronald Curtis has an extensive database if the Model 2 including 56 examples of Model 2s going to Japan. All of them are from 52499 to 58852. He has none in the 60,000 range, and large blocks of sequentially numbered guns did not go to Japan, but rather much more randomly picked guns from inventory were shipped.

So far, you still have lots of what-ifs and maybes. Spend the $75 and get the letter and get the symbols translated. We would all like to know what you find.

 

[opoefc]

Gary, Ron's data base info. is included in my data base, however Ron's base does not include Japanese shipments in the 62,000 serial number range, of which there are several, partly because Ron's info shows guns that letter to Japan, while I include guns that were ordered or sent to Japan by Agents located in other countries and those guns only letter to the Agents. Ed.