I've always thought that the 32 44 was bored straight through without a chamber shoulder. Is this true? I have one in my shop that does have a shoulder but I have nothing to compare it to. Were there other cartridges this could have been chambered for? The dimensions are: .352 at the base, .323 at the mouth, chamber length1.080. The bore is .311 and the groove is .320. The closest I can find is the French 1892 Ordnance ctg. Is this possible? All numbers match and it has a short bbl address. The owner has not sent for a factory letter.
S&W #3 New Model Target
- Thread starter cwneely
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mmaher94087
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If your friend has a revolver with a serial number higher than 3645 then it has a 1 9/16" cylinder and will have a cartridge stop or shoulder in the charge hole.
Cartridge specs
The Cartridge spec's that you listed are for the 32-44 cartridge and chamber.
There was a change to the cylinder and frame length as Mike mentioned. However, for the 32-44 case? both the long and short cylinders have case stops. So at the depth you mentioned the the case stops and chamber throat begins. So the 32-44 caliber Target is not bored straight through.
The 32-44 cartridge is very short unlike the 38-44 Target cartridge. The earlier 38-44 short frame/cylinder lacks case stops and is bored straight through. I have a long frame 38-44 Target and there is a "slight" case stop very close to the end of the chamber. My 32-44 short frame Target also has case stops due to the shorter overall cartridge length.
**** So the only Target Revolver that is bored straight through to my knowledge is the "Short" cylinder 38-44. All others that I am aware of have a case stop and chamber throat. Except for "Extremely Rare calibers" with longer cartridge lengths.
I still haven't shot my 32-44 Target but hope to soon.
Murph
The Cartridge spec's that you listed are for the 32-44 cartridge and chamber.
There was a change to the cylinder and frame length as Mike mentioned. However, for the 32-44 case? both the long and short cylinders have case stops. So at the depth you mentioned the the case stops and chamber throat begins. So the 32-44 caliber Target is not bored straight through.
The 32-44 cartridge is very short unlike the 38-44 Target cartridge. The earlier 38-44 short frame/cylinder lacks case stops and is bored straight through. I have a long frame 38-44 Target and there is a "slight" case stop very close to the end of the chamber. My 32-44 short frame Target also has case stops due to the shorter overall cartridge length.
**** So the only Target Revolver that is bored straight through to my knowledge is the "Short" cylinder 38-44. All others that I am aware of have a case stop and chamber throat. Except for "Extremely Rare calibers" with longer cartridge lengths.
I still haven't shot my 32-44 Target but hope to soon.
Murph
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Chicoine lists three lengths for the 32 44 ctg. .980, 1.3 and 1.465. Obviously only the first is correct. The ones I made up (from 7.62 Nagant brass) would be for the 320 rifle, if any one can use them. I made some more at the shorter lgth and they work fine. Great fun, impossible to see sights.
The .32 - 44 Cartridge was not full cylinder length.
Bullets could be seated either in a normal way or seated below case mouth, but Cylinder Chambers transition to a Cylinder Bore.
The .320 Revolving rifle which was basically a New Model 3 ( short Cylinder ) having a long Barrel and Shoulder Stock, used a Cartridge which was full Cylinder Length.
We have not yet found any examples of a New Model 3 Target or Service Revolver being chambered for the .320 RR Cartridge, but I suspect Target Models may exist and sooner or later we will see one.
This sounds like a perfectly normal .32 - 44...
Post us some nice images of the Revolver so we can enjoy seeing it?
I have a hand-full of original .32 - 44 'Gallery' Cartridges and also a hand-full of long distance ( 'Full House' ) Cartridges on their way...and I also have a hand-full of .320 RR Cartridges which I can post some images of if anyone wants...
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I do not know what the second one would be!
The .32 - 44 'Gallery' Cartridges I have, the OAL ( Rim and Body ) of the Cartridge Case is .970 for some no Head-Stamp ones, and, .974 with the "UMC" ones.
So, I suspect differing Manufacturers at the time may have wandered a little from being either "right on the money" to being a little bit shorter.
I'll measure the 'full house' ones once they get here and report back.
Some .32 - 44 Cartridges which ought to be here later next week sometime - Mixed Head-stamp I think with some "UMC"...
Hosted on Fotki
Hosted on Fotki
Some .32 - 44 'Gallery' Cartridges I have in Hand - some have no Head-Stamp, some are "UMC"...
Hosted on Fotki
Some .320 Revolving Rifle Cartridges I have in Hand - no Head-Stamp...
Hosted on Fotki
Hosted on Fotki
Hosted on FotkiSome .32 - 44 'Gallery' Cartridges I have in Hand - some have no Head-Stamp, some are "UMC"...
Hosted on FotkiSome .320 Revolving Rifle Cartridges I have in Hand - no Head-Stamp...
Hosted on Fotki
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Attach photo's?
When you reply to a thread right below that box? You see Additional options?
Then there is a rectangular blue icon that says manage attachments? Hit that and you can upload photo's from your phone? or your computer library of photo's. The limit is 5 photo's per response.
Murph
When you reply to a thread right below that box? You see Additional options?
Then there is a rectangular blue icon that says manage attachments? Hit that and you can upload photo's from your phone? or your computer library of photo's. The limit is 5 photo's per response.
Murph
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Extreme Caution!!!!
Cwneely,
I borrowed your photo as compared to Phil's original 32-44 cases he photo'd. It seems very obvious to me that your cases are much Too long for this caliber and cylinder !!
Remember this cylinder is machined with case stops. The case length CAN NOT go beyond that machined stop or very dangerous pressure can result!
Also, the Nagant chamber and cartridge are tapered like a wedge. The 32-44 is not tapered.
Murph
Cwneely,
I borrowed your photo as compared to Phil's original 32-44 cases he photo'd. It seems very obvious to me that your cases are much Too long for this caliber and cylinder !!
Remember this cylinder is machined with case stops. The case length CAN NOT go beyond that machined stop or very dangerous pressure can result!
Also, the Nagant chamber and cartridge are tapered like a wedge. The 32-44 is not tapered.
Murph
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Good Mention Murph!
Nagant Case ( and any Bullet which would fit in it without the Case being expanded to accept a .323 Diameter Bullet) is too small a diameter anyway, unless one can shorten the Case to right length and expand it down a ways and then fire form it maybe, but it might not fire form enough...
So as a too small a diameter and too long a Case, it may indeed chamber, but as you point out, the Case Mouth would be well past the transition step from Cylinder Chamber to Cylinder Bore and this is no good...
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The Nagant case is the only one with a .350 base (maybe the Lebel). It is fairly easy to make an expander plug to expand the case to a straight cylinder. You can then trim it to any length desired. I made these 1.060 because that is slightly less than the length of my chamber. They shot very well. I will trim them to standard now that I know what that is.
I love to get these old guns shooting again. So far I've been successful with the 44 Remington (really a .45), the 44 Evans and the 38 50 Remington. I've found that it is easier to find a gun with a good bore if ammunition hasn't been made since the BP era.
I found a reference in Himmelwright's book to one of the first Nat'l Revolver Association shoots being won with a S&W #3 chambered for the .320 Rifle ctg!
Thanks sgain for your help.
I love to get these old guns shooting again. So far I've been successful with the 44 Remington (really a .45), the 44 Evans and the 38 50 Remington. I've found that it is easier to find a gun with a good bore if ammunition hasn't been made since the BP era.
I found a reference in Himmelwright's book to one of the first Nat'l Revolver Association shoots being won with a S&W #3 chambered for the .320 Rifle ctg!
Thanks sgain for your help.
.32 - 20 Brass, likewise...
A good Bore and Rifling are so precious!
Does it say what year this was, or who the Shooter was?
How cool..!
Can't find the cite now but did find another. P245. Referencing tests made in 1900. Machine rest with standard BP ammunition in S&W revolvers. Best groups were made with the 32 44 Revolving rifle ctg. 1 1/4 x 1 1/2 @ 50 yards. .320 and 44 Russian also shot 3 to 4 inches at 100 yds.
Previous reply should have been U S Revolver Association, not National.
Previous reply should have been U S Revolver Association, not National.
Optimum conditions
I suppose that article proves the Target new model 3 can shoot 1 1/4" groups from a " Machine Rest" at 50 yards. To be fair, a machine rest is not unlike mounting the frame to a solid mounted Bench Vice to completely eliminate recoil and drift. It also removes human error.
Photo 1 is a typical bench rest.
Photo 2 & 3 are Machine rests.
I think that there are a lot of long barrel antique revolvers that would Also shoot extremely well from a machine rest at 50 yards.
Even a 6 inch barrel 38 Smith & Wesson top break of any model would shoot extremely well at 50 yards when mounted in a vice!
At least this article possibly proves what "the gun" is capable of with the original black powder loads.
Now all we have to do is locate a human being that can mimic a Cement statue with a hand grip like a Mechanical vice, eyes of an eagle , and bone structure like a gorilla and we have found our target master! LOL.
Murph
I suppose that article proves the Target new model 3 can shoot 1 1/4" groups from a " Machine Rest" at 50 yards. To be fair, a machine rest is not unlike mounting the frame to a solid mounted Bench Vice to completely eliminate recoil and drift. It also removes human error.
Photo 1 is a typical bench rest.
Photo 2 & 3 are Machine rests.
I think that there are a lot of long barrel antique revolvers that would Also shoot extremely well from a machine rest at 50 yards.
Even a 6 inch barrel 38 Smith & Wesson top break of any model would shoot extremely well at 50 yards when mounted in a vice!
At least this article possibly proves what "the gun" is capable of with the original black powder loads.
Now all we have to do is locate a human being that can mimic a Cement statue with a hand grip like a Mechanical vice, eyes of an eagle , and bone structure like a gorilla and we have found our target master! LOL.
Murph
Attachments
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There was a request for an image so...
My target in .32-44 S&W Gallery comes in period dealer box that includes a nickel container with three piece cleaning rod, nickel oiler, cleaning brush, rear sight adjusting screwdriver, approximately 22 small (32 caliber) lead balls and 29 each, (blown out and shortened/trimmed down) pistol cases marked 32-20 Win/ R-P, stored in a 30 round bullet board. It was shipped on November 25, 1899 and delivered to Schoverling Daly & Gale Co., New York City.
My target in .32-44 S&W Gallery comes in period dealer box that includes a nickel container with three piece cleaning rod, nickel oiler, cleaning brush, rear sight adjusting screwdriver, approximately 22 small (32 caliber) lead balls and 29 each, (blown out and shortened/trimmed down) pistol cases marked 32-20 Win/ R-P, stored in a 30 round bullet board. It was shipped on November 25, 1899 and delivered to Schoverling Daly & Gale Co., New York City.
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