S&W 625-JM Catastrophic Failure/Accident

[Sportsterguy]

Your "Guardian Angel" was with you that day sir. No matter how this happened I'm glad you are uninjured. That's a catastropic failure with a capital C! I had a Dillon 450 years ago and sold it after my best friend blew his 6" 57 up with a double charge when reloading some hot LSWC's on it up in Kodiak, Ak. back in 1985. I wish I hac a pic of the revolver as it looked very similar to yours. I now use nothing but my antique Rock Chucker for reloading.

Do you thoroughly check your brass for cracks, ect.? My only guess after seeing that pic has to be a DC.

 

[unokubi]

I couldn't find anything about overcrimping handgun cartridges causing high pressure. What I did find is a bunch of places stating that a heavy roll crimp and good case tension are needed to keep the bullets in the unfired cartridges in the cylinder from working out of the case. This is what I've experienced with .44mag, .445sm, and hot .45 colt.

Do you have any links supporting the idea that an overly heavy crimp could have caused this?

I didn't suggest it caused this -- I simply said that excess crimp can delay the release of the bullet and cause a pressure spike.

The most likely explanation to me is an overcharge -- but since the OP is skeptical of that, I had questioned whether the bullet could have been seated too deeply.

tk

 

[ms]

Still wondering...

I didn't suggest it caused this -- I simply said that excess crimp can delay the release of the bullet and cause a pressure spike.

You said that a bullet crimped too tightly can cause catastrophic failure:

The question is: What caused the excess pressure?

There are typically three culprits: Too much powder, a bullet seated too deeply; and a bullet crimped too tightly. Each of these can cause a catastrophic failure.

Since I routinely use a very heavy roll crimp in several cartridges, I'm interested in your source for this information. Do you have one?

 

[JNewell]

Yesterday I would have bet that a overload in a .45 ACP case wouldn't have blown the cylinder on a S&W. I am disconcerted.
Any metallurgists in the crowd? How was that cylinder made?

Geoff
Who is stunned.

Why would you have made that bet? There are an awful lot of warnings out there from knowledgeable people about hot-rodding the 625. Most are in the context of the .45 LC, but the real issue is that there isn't a lot of metal in these .45 N-frame cylinders.

 

[MajorD]

the vast majority of overcharges and blow ups I have seen have occured with ammo loaded on progressives like the dillon- a friend of mine blew a SAA- he was reloading and something jammed the base of his dillon-(spent primer or such) which resluted in him twisting it back and forth a little to free it up- must have casued a double charge. It may be slow and old fashioned but using a single stage press and visually checking powder level in every case charged is the best way to decrease the chances of these things happening

 

[amazingflapjack]

I put my powder in manually. If something goes wrong, I want to know it was my fault. I don't want to put that kind of dependance on any machine, no matter how good a machine it may be. I have a 625-8 and it is a very solid revolver. I regularly load 230 and 255 lead SWC's over a little over 5gr of unique with great results, but some of the older-thinner brass comes out a little shredded at the case mouths sometimes. I guess I should be a little more critical when I cull cases. Glad your OK, and thanks for thinking of us, and sharring with all of us. flapjack

 

[stantheman86]

I have 0 handloading experience, but my question is, how can a double-charged .45 ACP be any hotter than some of the blue whistler dinosaur killer handloaded .44 Magnums some guys shoot through N-Frames?

 

[jspick]

A hot load is a lot less than a double charge.

John

 

[Skeptic 9c]

Why would you have made that bet? There are an awful lot of warnings out there from knowledgeable people about hot-rodding the 625. Most are in the context of the .45 LC, but the real issue is that there isn't a lot of metal in these .45 N-frame cylinders.

I just didn't think an ACP case had enough capacity for a major overload, unlike the Specials and Magnums.

Geoff
Who needs to set up his reloaders.

 

[tocohillsguy]

Glad you are not hurt. You might want to see if smith will do anything for you. If it was not a high pressure load it might have been a metal problem with the pistol. I had my 442 blow up couple of months ago. I was shooting with standard winchester .38 spl.(I have several non +p guns so I never shoot or buy +p ammo) when on the 15th round of the session I felt a strange recoil checked the pistol and the barrel was missing. The frame had cracked under the barrel and it was laying in front of the bench on the ground. Sent it to smith and they said they couldn't fix it and sent me a 642 to replace it. Not real happy, they wouldn't say what happened and I lost my 442 no dash nickel finished. But at least I didn't have to eat the loss and buy my own replacement. And yes I am an idiot, I didn't think to take any pictures until the day after I sent it off.

Ugh. I have one of those satin nickel 442's, and its loss would make me very sad.

 

[Outrider]

Glad you're OK; Sorry the 625 isn't

I'm glad you're OK -- as that's as good a reminder as I've ever seen as to why we should always wear good eye protection...

Still, that's precisely the reason I don't reload...

Excuse a little flippancy, but the movie quote that comes to mind upon viewing these photos?

"Think you used enough dynamite, there, Butch?"

 

[HalfSwiss]

Still, that's precisely the reason I don't reload...
QUOTE]

Outrider, Over 40 years I've reloaded many tens of thousands of rounds and have never had a failure (knock on wood). On the other hand, I have had factory ammo fail on me occassionally. I do have my reloading system set up such that I explicitly check every round for powder level, among other things. And, I intentionally don't use a progressive press. But then, that's just me. Reloading is definitely not for everyone, for a variety of reasons. Another quote for you: "Man's got to know his limitations" Dirty Harry, Magnum Force.

 

[Beemerguy53]

Pictures like that just scare the heck out of me. I am really glad you survived this with no damage to hands or eyes.

Roger that! Those photos are chilling when you think about what might have happened.

It is just a flat-out miracle that nobody was injured.

 

[cp1969]

I have 0 handloading experience, but my question is, how can a double-charged .45 ACP be any hotter than some of the blue whistler dinosaur killer handloaded .44 Magnums some guys shoot through N-Frames?

The cylinder walls are thinner on a .45 cal N-frame as compared to a .44 but a .44 can be blown to pieces, too. The M27 would probably be the most likely to not come unglued, but even they can be blown apart, too.

 

[JNewell]

Fair question......it could depend on the powder being used and whether the case would hold a double-charge.

I just didn't think an ACP case had enough capacity for a major overload, unlike the Specials and Magnums.

Geoff
Who needs to set up his reloaders.

 

[Beemerguy53]

Well, folks, I discussed this incident with my best friend, who is an avid shooter and reloader, a rocket scientist by education (literally) and a ballistics engineer for Uncle Sam. The science of weaponry and shooting has been his professional life for 30+ years, he has forgotten more about firearms than I will ever know, and he is my go-to guy for any firearms questions.

He pointed out that a failure of this sort could be caused by many things, including overcharging, a manufacturing defect, or metal fatigue. He explained, for example -- and this comment is not about this specific case -- that shooting a single slightly overcharged load might not cause a problem, but shooting a number of them will weaken the gun over time, and can eventually cause a catastrophic failure. His bottom line answer: Nothing can be determined for sure from what we now know, and the best thing to do is wait and see what the manufacturer says.

mmhoium, please keep us posted...thanks!

 

[jimmyj]

WOW!!
The Good Lord was with you that day.
A question from a "Non Expert"- Could several mishaps have occurred at the same time to have caused this:
1. powder over charge
2. high primer
3. cylinder not indexed into full battery
4. metal fatigue

 

[Fletchman]

Looking at the pictures it almost looks as if the following round detonated as well. I know you said both were empties but the brass looks as if it was blown outwards on the round to the right. Anyway, guns are replaceable but body parts aren't. Glad you are ok.

 

[Mod27]

I'm very glad that your OK. Man, that was a close one!

I vote for a high primer detonation in the next one up to fire, or maybe an out of battery detonation of that one, caused by an overpressure round that was fired.

The case of that one looks like it was blown apart whereas the already fired one on the left of battery looks crushed.

Odd though, that the one you say you fired that started all the mess looks like it blew apart as well. That may have been an overpressure round.

So maybe it could have been that the one you fired was an overpressure round which blew up the gun and detonated the unfired round which was next up to fire.

That's my best guess. I hope that S&W will do something for you as far as a new gun.

 

[cowboy85306]

Howdy-
sorry to say, but looks like a double charge as most probable cause, and can't be "ruled out" based on just what we see. A disaster would have been a squib that only got in as far as inside the forcing cone, allowing the cylinder to still turn, followed by a double charged round. Such things are well discussed in books like Jerry Kuhnhausen's excellent service manuals, as well as other sources, and photos of such mishaps abound. I case split, by itself, with a normal charge, would not cause this - case splits are commonplace when brass has been fired and reloaded many, many times. With lower pressure rounds like .38 special, and .45 ACP loaded to spec, this normally causes no harm to either shooter nor firearm. High pressure stuff is another story!
On the other hand, I would count you as coming out ahead to have no injury from this; take heart in that! Another gun, you can eventually buy ( if your budget is like mine, eventually. If better, sooner! ). Glad you are alright!
I'm sure S&W would perform a failure analysis on this if they had the remains in their hands, and all info was provided to them.
Please understand that no offense is intended by any of this.