S&W 625-JM Catastrophic Failure/Accident
- Thread starter mmhoium
- Start date
JNewell
Member
There is a reason that nobody else said that...
The pictures tell me one thing clearly -- this was caused by excess pressure. Look at the 12 O'Clock chamber: The brass base has been melted and welded to the chamber walls. That's caused by pressure that's far too high. And it tells us that the problem originated here, though it might have spread to the right-hand chamber.
Look at the left-hand chamber: That's caused by pressure from the center chamber leaking in and crushing the casing.
The question is: What caused the excess pressure?
There are typically three culprits: Too much powder, a bullet seated too deeply; and a bullet crimped too tightly. Each of these can cause a catastrophic failure.
What if the mark on the bullet was caused not by the frame, but by the edge of the seating die? That would mean the bullet was seated far too deeply.
tk
Look at the left-hand chamber: That's caused by pressure from the center chamber leaking in and crushing the casing.
The question is: What caused the excess pressure?
There are typically three culprits: Too much powder, a bullet seated too deeply; and a bullet crimped too tightly. Each of these can cause a catastrophic failure.
What if the mark on the bullet was caused not by the frame, but by the edge of the seating die? That would mean the bullet was seated far too deeply.
tk
Where did you hear this?
I didn't know that over crimping .45acp could raise pressure enough to cause catostrophic failure. Where did you hear this? I've used a very heavy roll crimp on max pin loads for a 625 with no problems.
I didn't know that over crimping .45acp could raise pressure enough to cause catostrophic failure. Where did you hear this? I've used a very heavy roll crimp on max pin loads for a 625 with no problems.
Palmetto Sharpshooter
Member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2005
- Messages
- 896
- Reaction score
- 273
This.......
Not the .45 ACP specifically, but cartridges in general.
The pressure curve of the ignition sequence occurs over thousandths of a second. The bullet releasing from the cartridge causes pressure to vent as it reaches it's peak.
Any condition that delays the release of the bullet -- even for a fraction of a second -- will cause an increase in pressure.
Over-crimping is not a common source of problems. It seems mostly to come into play when using too much roll-crimp with magnum cartridges, or when using missized bullets.
In this case, I'd lean toward an overcharge or problem with bullet seating.
About the only other condition that could cause a pressure spike is a chamber obstruction.
tk
Dragon88
Member
There's a lot of myths and fairytales about internal ballistics in this thread. Hey, I'm glad your not hurt, but from the pictures that is an overcharge of powder, cut and dry. I know your are searching for other explanations, but you could put a picture of your gun in the dictionary next to "double charge". It is a good reminder to all of us handloaders not to take what we do lightly. I hope S&W can do something for you and you have better luck in the future with your handloading ventures.
BruceM
Member
"But...there's a reason why they tell you not to underload H110 and WW296, too."
Yep!
That reason is that H110/W296 require a minimum of 90% load density to burn correctly. Going below that threshold will result in a squib, not a detonation.
If the cases on either side of the one which blew were empty, the exploded round would have to have been the last in the string. I assume that the primer is no longer in the suspect case. If it were, I would look for a firing pin indent. I also assume that two bullets cannot be seated in the case along with a powder charge. Because the bullet, complete with gouged nose, was found at your feet, I would guess that, for whatever bizarre reason, the round fired with the chamber out of battery and the gouge is from the bullet hitting the edge of the forcing cone. As unlikely as that scenario seems, primers under the exactly correct set of circumstance, can do very unusual things, including sympathetically detonate. I don't know if I'll buy into the overcrimping scenario as a possible cause of a kaboom but jamming a bullet into the edge of the forcing cone and having that round fire will definitely raise pressures to the level necessary for one.
Bruce
Yep!
That reason is that H110/W296 require a minimum of 90% load density to burn correctly. Going below that threshold will result in a squib, not a detonation.
If the cases on either side of the one which blew were empty, the exploded round would have to have been the last in the string. I assume that the primer is no longer in the suspect case. If it were, I would look for a firing pin indent. I also assume that two bullets cannot be seated in the case along with a powder charge. Because the bullet, complete with gouged nose, was found at your feet, I would guess that, for whatever bizarre reason, the round fired with the chamber out of battery and the gouge is from the bullet hitting the edge of the forcing cone. As unlikely as that scenario seems, primers under the exactly correct set of circumstance, can do very unusual things, including sympathetically detonate. I don't know if I'll buy into the overcrimping scenario as a possible cause of a kaboom but jamming a bullet into the edge of the forcing cone and having that round fire will definitely raise pressures to the level necessary for one.
Bruce
Last edited:
scott625b
Member
Even though you are careful, there are times when the phone rings, the dog wants to go out, your wife calls or something, that makes you forget to rotate the table on the Dillon 550. It has happened to me, but I never have tried to load to "factory" specs, only ICORE and IDPA (125PF) loads. Glad you are OK!
Moonman
Member
Thanks for posting. I have a 625JM and it's a beautiful firearm. I'm also just setting up a reloading area with a Hornady single stage and a LNL AP and casefeeder. I am in the process of equipping the LNL AP with all of the DILLION alarm systems along with all the ULTIMATE RELOADERS (online videos) improvements, bullet tray, roller handle, powder linkage limiter. I milled a 1/8 deep slot with a 1/4 ball end-mill in the frame to make clearance for Dillon Powder Check systems ram tripping/activating rod. If I end up not liking the Dillon low powder charge alarm, I'll swap in an RCBS LOCK OUT unit. All of my initial reload for a few months will be done with the single stage as I learn. Your photos will be in my loading area, thanks again for the photos, but I'm truly sorry at your misfortune with the JM.
I looked around...
I couldn't find anything about overcrimping handgun cartridges causing high pressure. What I did find is a bunch of places stating that a heavy roll crimp and good case tension are needed to keep the bullets in the unfired cartridges in the cylinder from working out of the case. This is what I've experienced with .44mag, .445sm, and hot .45 colt.
Do you have any links supporting the idea that an overly heavy crimp could have caused this?
I couldn't find anything about overcrimping handgun cartridges causing high pressure. What I did find is a bunch of places stating that a heavy roll crimp and good case tension are needed to keep the bullets in the unfired cartridges in the cylinder from working out of the case. This is what I've experienced with .44mag, .445sm, and hot .45 colt.
Do you have any links supporting the idea that an overly heavy crimp could have caused this?
I taper crimp, so it most certainly wasn't a crimp issue.
Also, my powder measure is always set up for Universal, it never changes so there was no likelihood of mixed powder.
I'm really anxious to hear with the guys at Smith say. I'm fairly confident they will say overcharge as well, even though I still don't see it. I tried to replicate a double charge and didn't even come close. The cut in the bullet isn't typical of a seating issue; it was propelled into something and matches up perfectly to the edge of the frame when not indexed correctly.
Sgt, this is the same gun as the one on GlockTalk. The guy that posted it is a good friend of mine, he used to stop into my gun store all the time. Its good to see that the message is making its way out.
Again, thanks guys for the discussion. One of the greatest things about these forums is difference of opinion.
Also, my powder measure is always set up for Universal, it never changes so there was no likelihood of mixed powder.
I'm really anxious to hear with the guys at Smith say. I'm fairly confident they will say overcharge as well, even though I still don't see it. I tried to replicate a double charge and didn't even come close. The cut in the bullet isn't typical of a seating issue; it was propelled into something and matches up perfectly to the edge of the frame when not indexed correctly.
Sgt, this is the same gun as the one on GlockTalk. The guy that posted it is a good friend of mine, he used to stop into my gun store all the time. Its good to see that the message is making its way out.
Again, thanks guys for the discussion. One of the greatest things about these forums is difference of opinion.
devildog66
Member
No matter how you slice it - machines can fail us and often in a catastrophic way! I have never experienced a double charge failure but have had a Beretta 96 fail to go into battery and ignite a round regardless. Little bits of brass went everywhere and I am thankful for safety glasses. Have also seen a Remington 40 X Custom in 204 Ruger blow its top on Hornady ammunition. Hornady wanted to settle the matter with a "free" coffee cup... Uh, not so fast my friend!
I think you're right. The bullet that was found on the ground probably came from unfired round #6 which was sitting in the on-deck chamber.
The explosion in the 12 o'clock chamber probably ruptured #6's case, setting off its powder. Uncontained, with the cylinder already split and flying apart, this round was nothing more than a squib, pushing the bullet just hard enough to graze the frame, then falling to the ground.
Silverbullit
Member
Who's that Dillion fellar? *sry mate, couldnt help myself* 
Last edited:
Skeptic 9c
Member
Yesterday I would have bet that a overload in a .45 ACP case wouldn't have blown the cylinder on a S&W. I am disconcerted.
Any metallurgists in the crowd? How was that cylinder made?
Geoff
Who is stunned.
Any metallurgists in the crowd? How was that cylinder made?
Geoff
Who is stunned.
Sportsterguy
Member
Your "Guardian Angel" was with you that day sir. No matter how this happened I'm glad you are uninjured. That's a catastropic failure with a capital C! I had a Dillon 450 years ago and sold it after my best friend blew his 6" 57 up with a double charge when reloading some hot LSWC's on it up in Kodiak, Ak. back in 1985. I wish I hac a pic of the revolver as it looked very similar to yours. I now use nothing but my antique Rock Chucker for reloading.
Do you thoroughly check your brass for cracks, ect.? My only guess after seeing that pic has to be a DC.
Do you thoroughly check your brass for cracks, ect.? My only guess after seeing that pic has to be a DC.
I didn't suggest it caused this -- I simply said that excess crimp can delay the release of the bullet and cause a pressure spike.
The most likely explanation to me is an overcharge -- but since the OP is skeptical of that, I had questioned whether the bullet could have been seated too deeply.
tk
Still wondering...
You said that a bullet crimped too tightly can cause catastrophic failure:
Since I routinely use a very heavy roll crimp in several cartridges, I'm interested in your source for this information. Do you have one?
You said that a bullet crimped too tightly can cause catastrophic failure:
Since I routinely use a very heavy roll crimp in several cartridges, I'm interested in your source for this information. Do you have one?
JNewell
Member
Why would you have made that bet? There are an awful lot of warnings out there from knowledgeable people about hot-rodding the 625. Most are in the context of the .45 LC, but the real issue is that there isn't a lot of metal in these .45 N-frame cylinders.
the vast majority of overcharges and blow ups I have seen have occured with ammo loaded on progressives like the dillon- a friend of mine blew a SAA- he was reloading and something jammed the base of his dillon-(spent primer or such) which resluted in him twisting it back and forth a little to free it up- must have casued a double charge. It may be slow and old fashioned but using a single stage press and visually checking powder level in every case charged is the best way to decrease the chances of these things happening
amazingflapjack
US Veteran
I put my powder in manually. If something goes wrong, I want to know it was my fault. I don't want to put that kind of dependance on any machine, no matter how good a machine it may be. I have a 625-8 and it is a very solid revolver. I regularly load 230 and 255 lead SWC's over a little over 5gr of unique with great results, but some of the older-thinner brass comes out a little shredded at the case mouths sometimes. I guess I should be a little more critical when I cull cases. Glad your OK, and thanks for thinking of us, and sharring with all of us. flapjack
stantheman86
US Veteran
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2010
- Messages
- 2,479
- Reaction score
- 531
I have 0 handloading experience, but my question is, how can a double-charged .45 ACP be any hotter than some of the blue whistler dinosaur killer handloaded .44 Magnums some guys shoot through N-Frames?
Skeptic 9c
Member
I just didn't think an ACP case had enough capacity for a major overload, unlike the Specials and Magnums.
Geoff
Who needs to set up his reloaders.
tocohillsguy
Member
Ugh. I have one of those satin nickel 442's, and its loss would make me very sad.
Last edited:
Similar threads
