S&W 625-JM Catastrophic Failure/Accident

[gis]

Yep....something to said safety-wise on non-progressive presses.
I do all my reloading on a Spar T press, a Rock Chucker and a Lee Turret press...all non-progressive presses.

 

[JNewell]

OK, since nobody else said it,

"God-d*mn MIM cylinders".

There is a reason that nobody else said that...

 

[unokubi]

The pictures tell me one thing clearly -- this was caused by excess pressure. Look at the 12 O'Clock chamber: The brass base has been melted and welded to the chamber walls. That's caused by pressure that's far too high. And it tells us that the problem originated here, though it might have spread to the right-hand chamber.

Look at the left-hand chamber: That's caused by pressure from the center chamber leaking in and crushing the casing.

The question is: What caused the excess pressure?

There are typically three culprits: Too much powder, a bullet seated too deeply; and a bullet crimped too tightly. Each of these can cause a catastrophic failure.

What if the mark on the bullet was caused not by the frame, but by the edge of the seating die? That would mean the bullet was seated far too deeply.

tk

 

[ms]

Where did you hear this?

The question is: What caused the excess pressure?

There are typically three culprits: Too much powder, a bullet seated too deeply; and a bullet crimped too tightly. Each of these can cause a catastrophic failure. tk

I didn't know that over crimping .45acp could raise pressure enough to cause catostrophic failure. Where did you hear this? I've used a very heavy roll crimp on max pin loads for a 625 with no problems.

 

[Palmetto Sharpshooter]

This.......

I think it's and under load not overload.
A double charge is unlikely with the dillon according to a few members. But and under load is possible, a jam or obstruction of the powder and there is just a little powder in the shell.
And an under load is often more dangerous than overload. The ignition is to slow ending in extreme detonation.

The shock wave of such a detonation can cause other powder to ignite to and the problem is complete

 

[cp1969]

The 'underload' detonation issue is almost always in regard to very slow rifle powders such as H4831. But...there's a reason why they tell you not to underload H110 and WW296, too.

 

[unokubi]

I didn't know that over crimping .45acp could raise pressure enough to cause catostrophic failure. Where did you hear this? I've used a very heavy roll crimp on max pin loads for a 625 with no problems.

Not the .45 ACP specifically, but cartridges in general.

The pressure curve of the ignition sequence occurs over thousandths of a second. The bullet releasing from the cartridge causes pressure to vent as it reaches it's peak.

Any condition that delays the release of the bullet -- even for a fraction of a second -- will cause an increase in pressure.

Over-crimping is not a common source of problems. It seems mostly to come into play when using too much roll-crimp with magnum cartridges, or when using missized bullets.

In this case, I'd lean toward an overcharge or problem with bullet seating.

About the only other condition that could cause a pressure spike is a chamber obstruction.

tk

 

[Dragon88]

There's a lot of myths and fairytales about internal ballistics in this thread. Hey, I'm glad your not hurt, but from the pictures that is an overcharge of powder, cut and dry. I know your are searching for other explanations, but you could put a picture of your gun in the dictionary next to "double charge". It is a good reminder to all of us handloaders not to take what we do lightly. I hope S&W can do something for you and you have better luck in the future with your handloading ventures.

 

[BruceM]

"But...there's a reason why they tell you not to underload H110 and WW296, too."

Yep!

That reason is that H110/W296 require a minimum of 90% load density to burn correctly. Going below that threshold will result in a squib, not a detonation.

If the cases on either side of the one which blew were empty, the exploded round would have to have been the last in the string. I assume that the primer is no longer in the suspect case. If it were, I would look for a firing pin indent. I also assume that two bullets cannot be seated in the case along with a powder charge. Because the bullet, complete with gouged nose, was found at your feet, I would guess that, for whatever bizarre reason, the round fired with the chamber out of battery and the gouge is from the bullet hitting the edge of the forcing cone. As unlikely as that scenario seems, primers under the exactly correct set of circumstance, can do very unusual things, including sympathetically detonate. I don't know if I'll buy into the overcrimping scenario as a possible cause of a kaboom but jamming a bullet into the edge of the forcing cone and having that round fire will definitely raise pressures to the level necessary for one.



Bruce

 

[scott625b]

Even though you are careful, there are times when the phone rings, the dog wants to go out, your wife calls or something, that makes you forget to rotate the table on the Dillon 550. It has happened to me, but I never have tried to load to "factory" specs, only ICORE and IDPA (125PF) loads. Glad you are OK!

 

[Moonman]

Thanks for posting. I have a 625JM and it's a beautiful firearm. I'm also just setting up a reloading area with a Hornady single stage and a LNL AP and casefeeder. I am in the process of equipping the LNL AP with all of the DILLION alarm systems along with all the ULTIMATE RELOADERS (online videos) improvements, bullet tray, roller handle, powder linkage limiter. I milled a 1/8 deep slot with a 1/4 ball end-mill in the frame to make clearance for Dillon Powder Check systems ram tripping/activating rod. If I end up not liking the Dillon low powder charge alarm, I'll swap in an RCBS LOCK OUT unit. All of my initial reload for a few months will be done with the single stage as I learn. Your photos will be in my loading area, thanks again for the photos, but I'm truly sorry at your misfortune with the JM.

 

[ms]

I looked around...

Over-crimping is not a common source of problems. It seems mostly to come into play when using too much roll-crimp with magnum cartridges, or when using missized bullets.

I couldn't find anything about overcrimping handgun cartridges causing high pressure. What I did find is a bunch of places stating that a heavy roll crimp and good case tension are needed to keep the bullets in the unfired cartridges in the cylinder from working out of the case. This is what I've experienced with .44mag, .445sm, and hot .45 colt.

Do you have any links supporting the idea that an overly heavy crimp could have caused this?

 

[mmhoium]

I taper crimp, so it most certainly wasn't a crimp issue.

Also, my powder measure is always set up for Universal, it never changes so there was no likelihood of mixed powder.

I'm really anxious to hear with the guys at Smith say. I'm fairly confident they will say overcharge as well, even though I still don't see it. I tried to replicate a double charge and didn't even come close. The cut in the bullet isn't typical of a seating issue; it was propelled into something and matches up perfectly to the edge of the frame when not indexed correctly.

Sgt, this is the same gun as the one on GlockTalk. The guy that posted it is a good friend of mine, he used to stop into my gun store all the time. Its good to see that the message is making its way out.

Again, thanks guys for the discussion. One of the greatest things about these forums is difference of opinion.

 

[devildog66]

No matter how you slice it - machines can fail us and often in a catastrophic way! I have never experienced a double charge failure but have had a Beretta 96 fail to go into battery and ignite a round regardless. Little bits of brass went everywhere and I am thankful for safety glasses. Have also seen a Remington 40 X Custom in 204 Ruger blow its top on Hornady ammunition. Hornady wanted to settle the matter with a "free" coffee cup... Uh, not so fast my friend!

 

[augy]

I couldn't find anything about overcrimping handgun cartridges causing high pressure. What I did find is a bunch of places stating that a heavy roll crimp and good case tension are needed to keep the bullets in the unfired cartridges in the cylinder from working out of the case. This is what I've experienced with .44mag, .445sm, and hot .45 colt.

Do you have any links supporting the idea that an overly heavy crimp could have caused this?

I would like to see more information on this also.
Thanks,
augy

 

[cp1969]

The pictures tell me one thing clearly -- this was caused by excess pressure. Look at the 12 O'Clock chamber: The brass base has been melted and welded to the chamber walls. That's caused by pressure that's far too high. And it tells us that the problem originated here, though it might have spread to the right-hand chamber.

I think you're right. The bullet that was found on the ground probably came from unfired round #6 which was sitting in the on-deck chamber.

The explosion in the 12 o'clock chamber probably ruptured #6's case, setting off its powder. Uncontained, with the cylinder already split and flying apart, this round was nothing more than a squib, pushing the bullet just hard enough to graze the frame, then falling to the ground.

 

[cp1969]

I also don't think it fired out of battery. A large pistol primer is only .210" diameter and I don't know how far off center you can hit it and still get the primer to go.

 

[jspick]

I want to hear what Smith says and I would also like to hear what Dillion says.

John

 

[Silverbullit]

Who's that Dillion fellar? *sry mate, couldnt help myself*

 

[Skeptic 9c]

Yesterday I would have bet that a overload in a .45 ACP case wouldn't have blown the cylinder on a S&W. I am disconcerted.
Any metallurgists in the crowd? How was that cylinder made?

Geoff
Who is stunned.