S&W AirLite Sc J Frame: Is the .357 Magnum Overkill?

[Data]

Just like the title says, Do you think the S&W Airlite Sc (Scandium /Titanium J Frame is a bit overkill? I am specifically referencing the model(s) 340PD, and 360PD. Nowadays, it seems that most gun folks are straying from the high-powered .357 ammunition in favor of the standard and reduced pressure cartridges; furthermore, it appears to me that most owners of the 340 PD & 360 PD are most likely stoking their sub 12oz J Frame with the .38 special +P, standard, and reduced pressure loadings... ala the Short Barrel (SB) Speer Gold Dot 135gr. +P and various brands of .38 Special 148gr. Wadcutter. That being said, it makes me wonder why Smith & Wesson stopped producing the Model 342 PD & 337 PD chambered for a .38 Special +P. Obviously, the .357 Chambering gives you greater versatility as you can shoot the .357 as well as .38 special and +P rated, so long as the gun is chambered for the .357 cartridge. Me and everyone who has shot the high-powered .357 loads through 340 PD and 360 PD will tell you they kick like a Mule! I love the .357 cartridge, but I concede that it's a bit overkill for the ultralight sub 12 oz Scandium frame J frame. Honestly, what compelled Smith to do such a thing? It seems to me that they should add the 337 PD & 342 PD to their product line again. Definitely, I would buy the latter two in a heartbeat if they should ever come to market again. Lastly, I think my question here is ... Should Smith & Wesson stop making the 340 PD & 360 PD and replace them with the 337 PD & 342 PD chambered in .38 Special and rated +P? What are your thoughts?

 

[Old cop]

I've had the no-lock 340PD for ten plus years but keep +P in it & carry it in a pocket holster. Magnum rounds produce too much recoil for quick & accurate f/u shots, but everyone's different.

 

[burneyr]

When Smith & Wesson standardized the lineup to the new J-magnum frame it obsoleted the 337/342 models. The cylinder window on the J-magnum is .10 inch longer to accommodate the longer .357.

As a matter of production economy they aren't bringing the old models back, and the reinforcements on the new frames are certainly welcome for longevity.

Besides, the price premium for the scandium models has been very good for the company's bottom line. Ask yourself this: Why hasn't Smith introduced a titanium cylinder to the 442/637/642/etc. .38 Special Airweight models?

Cause there is way more profit in selling scandium J-frames. There is your answer.

You can do like many of us here on the forum. Fit a titanium cylinder to your Airweight .38. It gets you to within a quarter of an ounce of the 3XX series for a hundred dollar part.

 

[UNCLE PAULY]

My S&W 649 (heavy, stainless steel) J frame stays loaded with the Speers SB 38 spl +P rounds. When I first bought it I tried 357 mag loads and decided they weren't going to work out

Can not imagine shooting 357 mag in any light weight J frame.
357 mag loads go in my S&W 28 and S&W 520 N frames.

 

[Data]

My favorite carry load is Federal's "C357B" which is the full house 125gr. SJHP. It kicks super hard and stings a bunch but it's do-able for me. Accuracy is very good, but the follow-up shots are not as quick as the .38s. However, Federal is no longer producing this load or perhaps out of the production cycle for the time being. As always I will keep my eyes out for this particular load. As a result, I have switched over to the .38 Special 148 gr. Wadcutter, but for my backup rounds they are the Speer SB .38s in the 135 gr.+P as they are much easier to load into a cylinder due to the tapered bullet profile. Lastly, I can see why most people choose not to shoot the harsh .357 Magnum load out of a Scandium J Frame. If I could turn back the clock I would have purchased the 337 & 342 PD models years ago. However, I will never sell my 340 PD or 360 PD.

 

[s&wchad]

... the price premium for the scandium models has been very good for the company's bottom line...

This/\/\
The 340 sold for hundreds more than the 342 and presumably had a much higher profit margin. Why would S&W want to slash into their own profits?

I had a 340Pd and sold it. The recoil with magnums was too much for me and my 342Ti suits me just fine. I've carried it daily for over 20 years and like it so much I picked up a 342Pd and a 337Ti as spares!

 

[kaaskop49]

Chad, your findings are opposite mine! My 342 and 337 kicked so badly that I will prolly never fire them again. I carry my M&P 340s daily and find them tolerable with 110gr magnum loads, the bullet weight that the PD models can't handle w/o substantial damage.

Wish I could find a magnum load for my PDs, but a recent poster reported crimp jump with the R-P Golden Saber .357s in this model. Got a box of 145gr Silvertips somewhere, if I could only get around to trying them out. With the hard-kicking 340s of either persuasion, a 50-round box is tantamount to a lifetime supply.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

 

[s&wchad]

Chad, your findings are opposite mine! My 342 and 337 kicked so badly that I will prolly never fire them again. I carry my M&P 340s daily and find them tolerable with 110gr magnum loads, the bullet weight that the PD models can't handle w/o substantial damage.

I had the 340PD, which is a few ounces lighter than the M&P 340. After shooting a few magnum loads, I quickly decided I was never going to practice with magnum loads. The titanium cylinders do have limitations, but .38 Special Speer Gold Dot's work fine in my 342 and I find the recoil tolerable.

 

[hardluk1]

standard 357mags in alloy frame snubbys ether have crimp issues or just don't see the performance need for the bullets to perform as you would from 4" barrel . Speer short barrel 357mag works well but even federal new 338+p mini hst works better than many 357mag loads in a short .

Data stated s&w should add the 337 PD & 342 PD to their product line again. Why there just lite airweights too .

We have a 360j with a solid 357mag SS cylinder for 2.7 oz of extra weight but it can still be a handful and makes the use of hogues rubberized mono grip a nice addition over the nice looking but terrible to shoot with wood grips that came on ours . Still the speer short barrel ammo or the old rem 158gr semi jacketed ammo work well at lower velocity's . Find a load that you can handle barrel or buy a heavier handgun or a 3P load as some work better out of a snubby than many 357mag loads

If the softest shooting 357mag are still to snappy check out the link below for federals 38sp +P 130gr hst micro . I have a snubby bought in '90- thats a 38sp and today its filled with the load below . hard to find better expansion and it does manage fbi minimum penetration .

38 Special Ammo - Federal HST Personal Defense Micro 130gr JHP - 20 Rounds

BUt it would take a law makes semi autos illegal before ether if us carry a revolver and then it might be our DW 15-2 with 4" barrels not the snubbys . Snubby's would be sort of a last resort for us.

 

[Data]

Regarding ... "Crimp Jump" / "Bullet Jump" ... I think most of the past / present claims about it is greatly exaggerated and is pure non-sense regarding the Scandium J Frame chambered in 357 Magnum. While the problem can exist in any revolver, regardless of size and material, it has more to do with the process of a proper crimp method. That being said, I am more than confident to say that if it was a real issue Smith & Wesson would have stopped producing the .357 models several decades ago. I don't think Smith would want a bunch of lawsuits on hand. It would probably destroy the company altogether. In case you're unaware ...The Scandium Ti J frame in the 357 is marketed as a self-defense firearm, not a range toy.

I guess this all goes back to my original post ... Is this Scandium J-frame chambered in 357 magnum overkill or not?

Nuff' said! ;-)

 

[M29since14]

The 340PD was/is both a profit center and an engineering stunt, in my opinion. That said, no, there is no good reason I can think of to discontinue the model if it is selling. It's a good super-lightweight .38 Special revolver that can fire .357 Magnum ammo in a pinch.

For my own use, I prefer the 342PD, but as I have said often, what I would really like to have seen S&W make is a "942PD". I suppose someone can shoot standard .357 magnum loads (158 grain) fast enough in their 340PD to make follow-up shots realistic, but I can't. Silvertips are a bit easier to handle, but 125s are more realistic for me. If I'm going to use 125s in this type of gun, it might as well be a 9x19.

 

[BabaBlueJay]

Regarding ... "Crimp Jump" / "Bullet Jump" ... I think most of the past / present claims about it is greatly exaggerated and is pure non-sense regarding the Scandium J Frame chambered in 357 Magnum. While the problem can exist in any revolver, regardless of size and material, it has more to do with the process of a proper crimp method. That being said, I am more than confident to say that if it was a real issue Smith & Wesson would have stopped producing the .357 models several decades ago. I don't think Smith would want a bunch of lawsuits on hand. It would probably destroy the company altogether. In case you're unaware ...The Scandium Ti J frame in the 357 is marketed as a self-defense firearm, not a range toy.

I guess this all goes back to my original post ... Is this Scandium J-frame chambered in 357 magnum overkill or not?

Nuff' said! ;-)

IMO Yes, it is overkill because the recoil is hellacious with very little benefit. You just cannot maximize the power of full 357 loads out of a snub. Is it stronger than a 38 out of the same snub, of course... The diminishing returns of that in combination with the excessive recoil you are punished with make it overkill IMO. I am sure some feel the opposite and if it works for them, then it may not be overkill in their eyes.

 

[Rpg]

I've never understood why anyone would want to use 357 mag ammo in a lightweight J frame. It's downright unpleasant with no appreciable improvement in performance.

The increased velocity compared with 38 standard velocity in a 1 7/8" barrel is trivial and not noticeable on flesh and blood targets.

I suspect the attraction of the 357 in snubbies has more to do with the sex appeal of magnums, not their utility in that application.

 

[burneyr]

Crimp jump is real - one of the all time most popular self defense loads, the 158gr +p LSWCHP will jump crimp better than 50% of the time through Sc/Ti model lightweight snubs. The big three Federal, Winchester, and Remington all load that round with a dead soft swaged bullet. It's more an issue with the projectile being malleable than the crimp.

Saw it first with my 342 and others. Regretted going to jacketed bullets but it's a fact of life with these unless you buy a boutique round that's hard cast.

 

[cerescorubi]

340PD

I will probably get flamed but I love my 340PD pocket carry with full 158 Grain .357 loads. I carry a 629 3" or 4" Mountain Gun when in the woods etc. and at one time tried to belt carry some concealed version of a 66, 65 or I have a nice 686 CS1. They were all more than I was comfortable with. For concealed carry I have tried everything over the last decades. 5" Colt 1911, Glocks and several J Frame revolvers in increasing strenght and decreasing weight from a 3" 60 with target sights to a 642. Some will call me lazy but to comfortably carry I almost never carry extra ammo. I tried to love my P365 recently but compared to a 340PD it seems so heavy and cluncky. If I am only going to have 5 shots I want them to be as powerful as possible. A .357 even out of such a short barrel usually has double the energy of even +P 38 Special. I can get off 3 shots very rapidly but with only 5 aboard I don't see any advantage to holding an empty gun so will go slow and careful if God forbid I have to. This is only my decision and others can choose whatever they are comfortable with but I am almost never without this light and wonderfully powerful gun.

 

[kaaskop49]

Crimp jump is real - one of the all time most popular self defense loads, the 158gr +p LSWCHP will jump crimp better than 50% of the time through Sc/Ti model lightweight snubs. The big three Federal, Winchester, and Remington all load that round with a dead soft swaged bullet. It's more an issue with the projectile being malleable than the crimp.

Saw it first with my 342 and others. Regretted going to jacketed bullets but it's a fact of life with these unless you buy a boutique round that's hard cast.

Don't know how you and I can state, thru personal experience, that crimp jump is real, when the OP says that crimp jump is "greatly exaggerated" and "pure nonsense." Yes, the .38 LHP can crimp jump, especially the Federal load, as I have discovered. It is better restricted to steel frame guns. BTW, jacketed rounds can also crimp jump, the 110gr Norma .38 in my experience. Have done enough testing with .357 loads to have settled on the 110gr JHPs for the M&P 340s. Unfortunate I cannot use them in my 340PDs...Let me stop.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

 

[Data]

I don't mean to repeat myself here, but why would Smith & Wesson keep on producing the Scandium J Frames chambered in the .357 Magnum if "Crimp Jump" was a real problem with these lightweight scandium J frame revolvers?

Honestly, don't you think that it would be a huge liability issue?

If there was an issue, don't you think that Smith would have put a huge warning message in owner's manual and or perhaps engraved a message on the revolver?

In other words, are you saying that Smith & Wesson is turning the cheek the other way??

If so, why would you even put your trust in Smith & Wesson to begin with?

Does character really matter when it comes to your personal safety?

Apparently, nobody here has produced any shred evidence that it's actually an "ongoing" occurence or is just mere forum chatter ...

Truth matters. But, if I AM wrong I will stand corrected.

Best,
Data

 

[BC38]

My S&W 649 (heavy, stainless steel) J frame stays loaded with the Speers SB 38 spl +P rounds. When I first bought it I tried 357 mag loads and decided they weren't going to work out

Can not imagine shooting 357 mag in any light weight J frame.
357 mag loads go in my S&W 28 and S&W 520 N frames.

I'm with you.
Full boat magnums are unpleasant in any J-frame to me - even steel framed versions.
I'll occasionally pop off a cylinder or two, before my hand starts to go numb and I've had about all I want of them.
+P 38's in a scandium J frame feels almost like magnums in a steel J frame to me.
Though I have to admit, I have a Taurus 617 TTi that is almost as light as a scandium J-frame (19.7 oz) but the slightly larger grip frame and 7-round cylinder combined with the barrel porting make it much more comfortable to shoot with magnums.

 

[hardluk1]

I will probably get flamed but I love my 340PD pocket carry with full 158 Grain .357 loads. I carry a 629 3" or 4" Mountain Gun when in the woods etc. and at one time tried to belt carry some concealed version of a 66, 65 or I have a nice 686 CS1. They were all more than I was comfortable with. For concealed carry I have tried everything over the last decades. 5" Colt 1911, Glocks and several J Frame revolvers in increasing strenght and decreasing weight from a 3" 60 with target sights to a 642. Some will call me lazy but to comfortably carry I almost never carry extra ammo. I tried to love my P365 recently but compared to a 340PD it seems so heavy and cluncky. If I am only going to have 5 shots I want them to be as powerful as possible. A .357 even out of such a short barrel usually has double the energy of even +P 38 Special. I can get off 3 shots very rapidly but with only 5 aboard I don't see any advantage to holding an empty gun so will go slow and careful if God forbid I have to. This is only my decision and others can choose whatever they are comfortable with but I am almost never without this light and wonderfully powerful gun.

Lets just hope you never find your self in a gun fight with a snubby only and no extra ammo . I find it funny you states the p365 was heavy and clunky buy it might be more about not give any other handgun an honest chance when carried in a proper holster but that is your problem . Now are you lasy . Maybe probably but again thats your problem. If your use to pocket carry ,, heck any iwb or owb would feel odd if you don't have the right holster and give it time like a couple weeks . Oh well .

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

While I am certainly not a proponent of magnum ammunition in such short barrel, lightweight revolvers…there is a middle ground here. There's the Winchester 110 grain +P+ "Treasury Load". It's more than a .38 Special +P and less than a .357 Magnum. My Python snubby loves this ammo.

It's a bit hard to find on the market but Winchester loads it in a .357 case but loaded to the .38 Treasury Load specs.

 

[tgmr05]

Is it overkill? No, but it is a perfect example of maximizing weight/power potential. It is one of, if not the best pocket revolver choices out there. You have the ability to shoot anything from mild 38 to full power heavy magnums. That is the beauty of this revolver, you have many options that will function with reliability across a very broad range of power and bullet choices.

Personally, I have fired many numerous magnums over the years in both 340/360pds and m&ps, yet I do not necessarily carry magnum loads much at all. Why? Simply because a good 38 +p or even a good hardcast wadcutter in 38 serves me just fine for most of the time/places I carry a pocket size revolver. I prefer a more controllable recoil impulse and quicker second/third shot repeatability. There are times when I choose to carry full bore magnums, but mostly when the concerns are about tougher 4 legged potential threats.

Like others have mentioned, if one does not need/want true magnum capability yet still want the light weight, you can use 442/642/637 38 revolvers and get titanium cylinders to reduce weight - of course the only new titanium cylinders available are magnum capable, so one must take care and make sure to only use 38 ammo or only reload to 38 special pressures in magnum brass. But you do get very close to 340pd weight..

 

[pasound]

I have a 60-15 38/357 3". The factory grips were useless - slipped and flipped in my hand with 38+P. I swapped them for Hogues, and then tried 5 158gr Federal 357 JSP. Big boom, no control whatsoever, even with big grips. I'll never shoot 357's in any j frame again. Remington 158gr +P LSWCHP FBI, and otherwise 158 SWC and 148 WC for daily loads in it, and all the other j's I own. I do have a quantity of Winchester 110gr STHP for the "best choice" short range HD loads. They are standard pressure velocity.

 

[burneyr]

I don't mean to repeat myself here, but why would Smith & Wesson keep on producing the Scandium J Frames chambered in the .357 Magnum if "Crimp Jump" was a real problem with these lightweight scandium J frame revolvers?

Honestly, don't you think that it would be a huge liability issue?

If there was an issue, don't you think that Smith would have put a huge warning message in owner's manual and or perhaps engraved a message on the revolver?

In other words, are you saying that Smith & Wesson is turning the cheek the other way??

If so, why would you even put your trust in Smith & Wesson to begin with?

Does character really matter when it comes to your personal safety?

Apparently, nobody here has produced any shred evidence that it's actually an "ongoing" occurence or is just mere forum chatter ...

Truth matters. But, if I AM wrong I will stand corrected.

Best,
Data

This is a very congenial site, and I'm not prone to be argumentative, but several of us have shared our personal experiences with this issue. If you choose to discount our knowledge that's up to you. However, I don't appreciate you insinuating somehow what I shared is some untruthful "forum chatter."

Smith & Wesson has acknowledged crimp jump, bullet pull, unseating, or whatever term you choose with their lightweight revolvers, and this warning appeared with the first 342 I purchased. I am uncertain if earlier Airweight manuals stated the same.

Smith views this as an ammunition failure not a failure of their revolvers. Certain types/brands/bullet weights of cartridges are prone to this occurrence as several of us have mentioned.

If our word isn't good enough, consult page 13 of the current owner's manual. Does this qualify as a "huge warning message in owner's manual?" I do believe the details are pertinent to the questions you pose.

I'll refrain from trying to assist you further. Sometimes the best lessons we learn are from experience. Leaving it at that. Best of luck to you with your revolver.

 

[Data]

Burneyr,
I hope this note finds you well and everyone who replied. I thought much about what has been said and I stand corrected! I am a bit of a straight shooter when it comes to stuff like this, but you and everyone should know that I really appreciate the input and shared information. I am just a guy searching for answers. This is a great forum and is loaded with an amazing amount of knowledge and experience. Much appreciated!
Best,
Data

 

[duane_wade]

I have a 360 AirWeight in my EDC rotation and I shoot nothing 125 gr Golden Saber through it other than handloads made to mimic that load. The Golden Saber are advertised at 1200 fps from a 2½" barrel, granted my 360 only has the 1⅞" barrel but with Hogue monogrips on it it is not punishing but very manageable recoil. Some people cannot handle recoil as well as others. But as others have going to .38 +P maybe what you need to do. There are some mild .357 158 gr that aren't bad but I like the 125s as they shoot to POA.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

 

[cerescorubi]

I have tried dozens of holsters over the years with at least a dozen different revolvers and semi auto guns with good and some expensive Milt Sparks inside and outside holsters. I have tried wearing different clothes etc to accomodate them. Pretty obvious i diid not carry a 5" Colt 1911 in a pocket. After trying all of them I have come to the realization that the only carry option that I always feel comfortable with is pocket carry. With the P365 both 10 and 12 round magazines I have tried a leather appendix, 4:00 Leather and kydex and a pocket holster. They are all clunky compared to 340PD pocket carry for me. Again you can do whatever works for you but this works for me.

 

[hardluk1]

I find your trying to carry a 5" steel frame 1911 at all very funny specially with your fools reference to pocket carry but every one can read your reply and smile !!

I'm one guy that did not like milton sparks summer carry holster but I did sell it with out loosing money 3 weeks liter and never found owb to work that well for me , never held a handgun tight enough to the body to me but many love both . I tend to wear T shirts or square bottom button downs that fit well have a few nice square tail linen shirt for nights out with my wife but nothing thats sloppy or even loose fitting ether and no unneeded cover garments . I do have one owb that's seems to be a very good owb and that's a Tucker HF-2 but I rarely use it , Winter time in church or funerals is about it .

You also stated you have tried dozens of holsters over the years with at least a dozen different revolvers and semi auto guns with good and some expensive . Wow . lots of time ,maybe a year or better if added up waisted . My first holster was made by a tack shop owner that carried and it lasted 17 years about . It was adjustable for heigh and cant . When it was used up Comp-Tac Neutral hybrid filled my needs well for an alloy frame commander and years later then an showed MTAC showed when my wife said my old one looked bad ? I still wear it many years later. The MTAC is set up for my M&P's . Both are very adjustable for height and cant and work so well for my at 3:00 carry I still do the occasional elbow check to be sure I have my lw commander on me .

Your an airweight j frame fan boy so good luck with your choices just never hope you need to draw it and use it or need it when seated . I can draw with a seat belt on .

Oh your lighter trigger thinner no larger physically p365 that has a longer grip with extra rounds and quicker reload IF thats ever needed and it has a better choice of ammo that works well from a short barrel only a little heavier and that aids with split times . Time to move on .

Just for comparison -
Sig Sauer P365 vs Smith & Wesson Model 340 PD size comparison | Handgun Hero

 

[bakron1]

I carry a S&W 640 Pro Series and shooting 158 Grain 357 loads is a painful experience, I choose to carry Hornady CD 38SPL+P and the pistol shoots this round very well and I am very accurate with it.

I could have bought the 640 38SPL which also shoots the +P ammo, but the 640 Pro feels so much better in my hand and I also like a heavy gun because it gives me more control with recoil and accuracy.

I also have the Crimson Trace laser grips which gives me extra room for my pinky finger because I have large hands, I was never the type of person to use a laser to assist in my aim, but after using one for the past few months, it has changed my mind being I am 68 wear glasses and my eyes are what they use to be.

 

[Brian Parrish]

Skills not gear!

I have enjoyed this thread so far so thanks!
I think that a useful answer to your question would require a shared fighting philosophy and perhaps also a shared training philosophy.

Why a magnum anyway? So many of us are preoccupied with expansion and penetration which is fine with me, but expansion does have a purpose and there is a reason why the round has to go deep enough. What you are trying to do with a handgun is to open a hole in an artery or vein. If the bullet is so small that it passes by without doing that, well ya gotta try again. If it stops before it gets through to one, then try again. The current popular doctrine holds that one must have at least a four-inch barrel to realize any benefit from magnum velocity. Chris Baker, Lucky Gunner, says that j frame 38's in his testing could provide reliable expansion or reliable penetration, but not both.

Recoil? You can get used to anything. Do you believe that if you do not practice with exactly what you are carrying, that you will be defeated in a fight? Well, it is expensive and it takes time, but you will eventually learn to shoot your j frame magnum without flinching. In YOUR hands it will be a deadly weapon.

My opinion will always be informed by my philosophy that skill not gear is decisive. Your skills with your weapon inform and dictate your tactics. I like to say, "A gunfight is more fight than gun!

Short answer? Not overkill...
because I don't believe in "overpenetration",
because you can learn to control recoil, or at least learn how long it will take to recover and shoot again,
because somewhere in between 38 spl, 38spl+p, 38spl+p+, 38spl+p++, and 357 magnum there is a round that your revolver will shoot very well and it will be plenty powerful enough. That "extra" power ain't in the way.

 

[Shibadog]

Overkill? Maybe, depends on the shooter. Not what I'd choose, but hey we are all different. To me the best things about the Scandium guns are (1)light weight and (2) better sights than your average J frame. These little beast are so light and easy to carry there is simply no excuse for ever NOT carrying. Find a round YOU can hit with reliably and follow up with and you're golden.