S&W auto's

[Sevens]

It's not that S&W "cannot", it's that S&W has elected not to make them anymore. It isn't about what other gunmakers are doing, it is about what S&W has decided they wish to do.

It truly is no more complicated or mysterious than that.

Building the 3rd Gen takes some off-site suppliers and vendors, S&W doesn't carve every single piece from a chunk of metal. It also takes floor space for the tooling that has since been reappropriated for othet work. It takes a staff of employees trained on those particular pistols.

S&W has decided that those reasons and the costs associated with them don't add up to potential sales of new production older technology.

 

[MattyD380]

It's not that S&W "cannot", it's that S&W has elected not to make them anymore. It isn't about what other gunmakers are doing, it is about what S&W has decided they wish to do.

It truly is no more complicated or mysterious than that.

Building the 3rd Gen takes some off-site suppliers and vendors, S&W doesn't carve every single piece from a chunk of metal. It also takes floor space for the tooling that has since been reappropriated for othet work. It takes a staff of employees trained on those particular pistols.

S&W has decided that those reasons and the costs associated with them don't add up to potential sales of new production older technology.

Great points.

I think someone alluded to this before...

If Smith doesn't ever want to make them again... sell the rights and the equipment to someone who does. A small-scale operation that can fully devote the resources to building a niche product, for a discerning consumer who wants a top-notch DA/SA piece.

Ok. Back to reality now...

 

[rwsmith]

I will continue to search for them.....

I'm going to spend more time in pawn shops search for 'old metal guns' that nobody wants anymore.

 

[WR Moore]

Let me comment upon a couple of things brought up. First off, no manufacturing firm keeps machine lines dedicated to one product-unless they have to in order to meet demand. Product demand is forecast a year or more in advance and production for those various items scheduled.

So, the thought that there's machinery in Springfield-or anywhere else- gathering dust because someone isn't making that item anymore is a myth. Machinery currently making stuff that sells/has been ordered would have to be taken out of production, retooled and retooled again at the end of that limited run. Lost production costs money-which customers pay for in added costs for the various products. It's not just frames, it's all those itty bitty parts that fit inside the frames & slides too.

Now then, for an actual example: back in 2006 we needed to purchase sufficient third generation handguns (4006) to get everyone using the same firearm. We had 2/3 of our unit using the 1006, the rest using the 4006. I don't recall the exact price for the 4006, but we were able to re-equip everyone with M&P40s for less money than it would have cost for the 4006's. Even after another expansion of personnel.

Bad move? NO! The M&P is a better combat gun than either of the TDA guns. Sorry if you don't agree, but we're dealing in results, not pride of ownership. The carpenter may of may not have stylistic wants about their hammer. The important thing is how well it drives nails and ease of maintenance.

BTW: yes, I've got some third generation pieces, including my 1006. They stay locked up.

Almost forgot, several folks mentioned "cost". One gent noted several things that affect cost. Let me add to the list: Taxes, wages and benefits, maintenance, payments on loans for machinery & tooling, set asides for various exceptional expenses, capital expenditures, lost income (what the company could make if the money being spent was invested, today that's probably non-existent), advertising (the LGS doesn't buy those full page ads), dividends to stockholders, utilities ........the list goes on-forgot one! PROFIT (yes, it's a cost). Remember the factory gets maybe 30-35% of MSRP when they sell the items to the distributor.

 

[MWater]

If Smith doesn't ever want to make them again... sell the rights and the equipment to someone who does. A small-scale operation that can fully devote the resources to building a niche product, for a discerning consumer who wants a top-notch DA/SA piece.

I'm pretty sure that if someone really wanted to make a carbon copy of a third gen, nobody is going to stop them. Daewoo did a good enough job on their derivative.

I'm always hoping a Turkish company like MKEK will do it, but I doubt it. Not a lot of overlap between the crowd that pines for third gens and the crowd willing to buy guns from Turkey, I think.

Always good to remind people that you *can* run out and buy a brand new alternate-reality third gen from Lionheart. Have to settle for aluminum frame, though.

 

[Big Shrek]

I'm often reminded of exactly how long plastic lasts...
as I just gave my kids the toys I played with 40 years ago...
granted, it was a different formula back then, but
plastic does degrade with time, heat, and weather conditions.
Some of it has lasted quite well, but most is brittle and easily broken.
Nothing you can do will stop the degradation like you can with a steel gun.

Steel, if kept clean and oiled, will last a whole lot longer
than any plastic ever will. I've got perfectly functional
pistols and rifles from the 1920's & 1930's.
Also have a few Bakelite-type plastic items from that same
period...which are all brittle as heck & you have to treat
them more carefully than fine china.

Remember Tupperware from the 70's??
Try using some of it now.

For that matter, try finding a Gen 1 Glock that
still works and is showing no signs of degradation.

I'll take my All Steel guns, thank you very much

 

[Texas40]

The polymer used in pistol frames and the plastics to make toys are no where near the same materials.

I seem to be developing a liking for the line myself have two now 4006 and 4516-2
I see them 3rdGens) alot at shows always check um out
looking for gems like the 4516 it was nib at a small lgs locally.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[BAM-BAM]

The "Performance Center" as it was originally, located in an airplane hanger behind the main factory, staffed with talented gunsmiths making semi custom versions of standard production guns, no longer exists.

The 3rd gen guns wont be coming back. That much is clear. And I would surmise that were a "classic" 3rd gen pistol to be produced, it would probably pale in comparison to the original. Much like the so called "classic revolver" line.

The good news is that LNIB examples of the 3rd gen pistols are still readily available on the auction boards. While prices are steadily increasing, they can still be found for not too much money. Especially considering what you are getting.

So find which models you want to aquire and get them while the inventory is not limited and the price is not limiting. Great pistols! Regards 18DAI

Nuff said......................................

 

[CBus660R]

Now then, for an actual example: back in 2006 we needed to purchase sufficient third generation handguns (4006) to get everyone using the same firearm. We had 2/3 of our unit using the 1006, the rest using the 4006. I don't recall the exact price for the 4006, but we were able to re-equip everyone with M&P40s for less money than it would have cost for the 4006's. Even after another expansion of personnel.

Bad move? NO! The M&P is a better combat gun than either of the TDA guns. Sorry if you don't agree, but we're dealing in results, not pride of ownership. The carpenter may of may not have stylistic wants about their hammer. The important thing is how well it drives nails and ease of maintenance.

I'm not a fan of plastic striker fired guns, but I'll say this, the Springfield XD40 is own certainly works and feels good in my hand. As a tool, it's top notch, just not much to look at when compared to my metal guns, be they my 1911s or Smith 2nd and 3rd gens I own. And that's what it comes down to for us folks who are posting here. The all metal traditional DA/SA guns just "look right". Certainly people will bring up other reasons for liking a traditional pistol, but they're secondary IMHO.

 

[VTHokiesDuckHunter]

Price is not the real issue. Manufacturing space and workers may be part of the problem at S&W for the issue of not making 3rd gens anymore.

Certainly since SIG (P220, P239, others); Beretta, CZ and others make TDA metal guns at competitive prices shows it can be done.

Not to mention S&W, Ruger and others making nice 1911's at competitive prices. And Browning still making Hi-Powers.

S&W simply doubled down to try to retake the LEO and general public market back from Glock. And they've dedicated their focus, R&D and manufacturing capabilities to that end for any pistols that are not 1911's, .22's or revolvers.

For that matter - look at the .22 market. Ruger's new Mark IV's are awesome metal guns as are the Buck Marks. From $400-$600.

It could definitely be done. I just don't think S&W is going there.

Colt is back with their new .357 revolver though. Kimber is making revolvers (unfortunately - not with exposed hammers). Who knows, maybe it could happen!

I'd love to see S&W open a small plant in SC and introduce some new alloy, scandium and stainless 4th gens.

A 4th gen Scandium framed 3913 at $1200 and I'd buy 3 of them!

 

[WR Moore]

There's something I forgot to mention above...we did get to T&E the M&P40 prior to adoption. Going in, the attitude was "Another crappy plastic pistol." After trials, EVERYONE was enthusiastic about the change.

Following transitional training a very large number of our personnel went out and paid their own money for a personal firearm. That had never happened before. Not everyone bought the .40, but it was still an impressive vote of confidence.

VT, I hate to break it to you, but price does matter to a slew of folks. Yes, some folks are still making their old designs. While several types of firearms (1911, etc) have die hard fans, it'll be interesting to see how long those designs (other than icons) persist. All those makers have new designs on the market and the new US service pistol isn't metal framed.

 

[MattyD380]

A 4th gen Scandium framed 3913 at $1200 and I'd buy 3 of them!

Yes. Well, I couldn't afford 3. But sign me up for 1.

I think Smith (or someone) could make money with something like this. Unfortunately, it seems like there are easier ways to make a buck in the firearms industry... like PC editions of M&P guns and expensive 1911s.

 

[WR Moore]

By the way, while people are commenting about how certain other companies are able to make metal frame handguns at a profit, let's look at one.

The basic design of the Sig double action pistols was developed by Sweitzer Industrie Geschellshaft in the 1970s. They realized they had a possible winner, but Swiss law forbid export of the firearm/design. So, they did a joint venture with JP Sauer & Sohn to form Sig-Sauer.

Now, Sig and Sauer are, or are part of massive conglomerates, firearms are part of the mix. I'm not sure what the joint venture arrangements are, but neither parent is going to go broke if their joint venture isn't sufficiently profitable. Obviously, neither is their joint venture.

Not the same place S&W is. They're diversifying, but they don't have the massive backing that Sig-Sauer has. If they don't make money, they die.

 

[MWater]

I wonder if there's also a marketing aspect to it. The M&P is the successor to the third-gen and is supposedly superior. The marketing folks will ask how can we sell an "inferior" gun that costs more? The situations where this does happen, e.g. 1911, Beretta 92, Sig 226, CZ-75, etc, perhaps have more historical appeal than the third-gen does (for now).

Plus Smith is devoting all of their resources to a) CCW (the Shield is their bread and butter at this point) and b) trying to recapture the LE market, both of which pretty much rule out metal-framed guns.

 

[Sevens]

The M&P does nothing for me simply because I can't fall in love with Tupperware guns. I have nothing against the M&P (except that it is striker fired plastic) and I actually find it halfway decent looking and feels good in the hand, two big places where it beats the "Standard" (Glock, obviously)

I only say all that above to make it clear that I have no end-game if it sounds like I am attempting to "defend" the M&P line -- I am not trying to do that.

If you must pick a product of S&W to BLAME for the eventual death of the 3rd Gen, the M&P is absolutely NOT your target. The M&P has kept the lights on and noise coming out of Springfield.

If you have to pick the S&W that killed the 3rd Gen, it's going to be any/all of the 1911 pistols.

And yeah, I like a S&W 1911 also, that's for sure, but there's a hundred choices in the bloated 1911 market. If S&W had just skipped the whole 1911 deal, I think we'd have a much better chance to see continued 3rd Gen production.

 

[MattyD380]

Just in case anyone's interested... there's an unfired 5904 for sale on GB right now. Looks like it's kinda flying under the radar.

Carpe diem...

 

[FUBAR-M1A]

There are quite a few trade-in 5906TSW, 5904, 6906 & 6904 on there right now. Even mix of 1 mag & no mag. Most are older & all have quite a bit of finish wear but aren't priced too bad.

 

[Handgunner00]

S&W SS Semi-Auto 659

To add an interesting fact to this discussion: The Roy Jinks letter says my stainless steel 2nd gen S&W 659 shipped from the factory in April 1983 with an MSRP of $449.00. That computes to $1,110.69 in todays dollars. Photos attached.

 

[EBSF1911]

3rd. Gen prices???

Yeah, price is subjective. I recently gave 950$ for my gently used 1006 I don't remember how much I paid for my first one around 1990 (brand new). But in today's dollars I gave 1200$ for a new DW Razorback 10mm. (Getting DW's galling issues in the bargain), so I would gladly pay in the 1200/1300$ range for a brand new 10xx any model, but since I can't I will live with what I have to pay to get back a gun that I regret getting rid of in my youth. Actually I am happier with this one, my original one showed signs of galling on the barrel lug where it mates with the frame, my new one is just missing the adjustable sights, I happen to like those bulletproof looking sights