S&W Magazine disconnect feature.

[WR Moore]

kbm6893-the metal frame S&Ws operate the magazine disconnector with the top of the magazine lips. Whether or not your particular pistol requires the mag to be locked into place depends upon magazine spring tension and individual tolerances. We issued the 1006 and it didn't need the mag locked into place to operate (did bang, whoops a couple of times myself).

The M&P series uses the back of the magazine body to operate the disconnector, so the magazine position isn't as critical.

Buff- I read a similar story once upon a time (but IIRC, was one officer, not 2), I don't believe that Mas was the source, since he's debunked several similar tales involving either the thumb or magazine safety. More to the point, he participated in a discussion similar to this on what's now the eotacforum back in October 2006 where this issue was beaten beyond death without mentioning it. He's currently traveling/teaching with only sporadic internet access. One of the other things I remember about that alleged incident is that the holsters in use weren't designed for the S&W, but were used by that department and were alleged to have caused the issue. In any event, without documentation, it's kinda like the story from your cousins uncles brother who knew a guy...............

 

[Super Trucker]

Thanks for the response. I think the one thing we DID settle here is an untrained person has no business owning or operating a firearm. And the problem is that MANY people who decide to make the choice to buy one don't take the time to use them, and unintended discharges will continue to occur. A good friend of mine has an XD9. He fired 200 rounds through it, reloaded it, (never cleaned it) and put it in his sock drawer. 2 years later, I am over there and insist he clean it. No mag in the gun, but one chambered. I ask him why, and he says "in case my daughter finds it, she can't fire it". 5 years after buying that gun, it has had 200 rounds through it.

In my opinion, the move away from manual safeties and mag disconnects is due to the large amount of untrained, unskilled shooters who elect to excercise their right to bear arms, yet don't want to take the time, or spend the ammo, to learn the weapon. Some of the new cars coming out will parralel park for you! Hey, why bother to learn how to do it when a machine will do it for you, right?

I don't know why I am bothering since you are about 6 planets away from what i was saying.

First: This thread is about a mag safety correct?
Next: You say cops lives are saved by the mag safety, correct?

Finally: Are these cops trained to push the mag release to disable the gun in a fight? That would mean they are trained Right?

How many Non cops are trained to push a mag release in the event of a fight? So they are untrained right?

I never said a thing about shooting up the city and whatever your imagination has dreamed up.



BTW: On the topic of training and you trying to make me look like the problem. And you rambling about who should not own guns. The detroit swat team entered the wrong apartment this morning withflash bangs, There is a 7 year girl dead now, by a bullet from a swat members gun.

Work that into your idea of who should not have guns speech for us.

 

[LuddhaBuddha]

So, what exactly is a trained gun owner, and what is a responsible gun owner? I consider myself a responsible gun owner but I don't believe I am trained.

To me being trained means that you have attended a class such as Thunder Ranch, Front Sight, or something similar. I do not believe that everyone who wants to own a gun should have to go to one of these schools for training. Would they benefit from it, absolutely, that doesn't mean they are a moron and can't handle a gun safely without it.

I know the rules of gun safety, I practice drawing from concealment, tap rack drills, moving while firing, and so forth. I think this makes me more prepared and responsible but I do not consider myself "trained". If people follow gun safety rules then I do not think they need to be trained to be a safe and responsible gun owner.

I don't see how having one shot come from your gun in a life threating situation could possibly be worse than having no shots come from your gun. The argument that you wont know what to do from slide lock is silly. Practice by having a friend load your mags with snap caps randomly and do tap rack drills. If you do this you will have the motorskills ingrained into your body and it will be automatic problem solved.

Now on the other hand if someone pulls their mag disconnect equiped gun out to use it and the mag isn't fully seated and nothing happens when they pull the trigger how could this possibly be better than the other scenario? You still have a gun thats worth about as much as a rock, and if you panic like you seem to think everyone will you have the same problem as you would without the mag safety only you got no shots off instead of one. Again if you practice tap rack drills you have solved the same problem that the other guy had only you didn't get that first round off that may have stopped or slowed your attacker down enough to keep him from chopping you up with a machete.

So in my opinion the slide lock argument for the mag safety makes absolutly zero sense, and the only argument I can see for it is when an officer is fighting for or has already had his gun taken. Fine I can live with that if the police want them for this feature great for them. The situation in which this feature would be good for me I can not see at all, it's not as useless to me as the firing pin safety that I disabled on my 1911 but it almost is.

 

[kbm6893]

I don't know why I am bothering since you are about 6 planets away from what i was saying.

First: This thread is about a mag safety correct?
Next: You say cops lives are saved by the mag safety, correct?

Finally: Are these cops trained to push the mag release to disable the gun in a fight? That would mean they are trained Right?

How many Non cops are trained to push a mag release in the event of a fight? So they are untrained right?

I never said a thing about shooting up the city and whatever your imagination has dreamed up.



BTW: On the topic of training and you trying to make me look like the problem. And you rambling about who should not own guns. The detroit swat team entered the wrong apartment this morning withflash bangs, There is a 7 year girl dead now, by a bullet from a swat members gun.

Work that into your idea of who should not have guns speech for us.

We weren't "trained" to hit the mag release. We were instructed in its use when we were issued our pistols. Quite frankly, it is pretty much instinct. Someone goes for your gun, you hand immediately flies to the weapon to retain it. We never ran drills or anything.

Secondly, Detroit is a high crime city. Raids like the one you mention occasionally have unfortunate resolutions. And since we don't know the circumstances of how that round was fired, I choose to wait until i have more facts before I castigate the officer. But your bias is shining right through this computer screen.

And I'm not trying to say who should have guns. i think any citizen with a clean record should be able to own and carry a gun. If you took the time to find out, you would find that most cops feel the same way.

And I never said only cops have been saved by the mag release. I said I know 2 who have. I'm sure many civilians have as well. i recall a special on HBO about guns. it was extremely biased (as you would expect from HBO), but one of the cases sticks to mind. 15 year old boy finds his Dad's Walther PPK. He and his friend go outside to shoot it, and let one round off across the lake. They take the mag out, and one kid (unschooled in the use of firearms, of course), points the gun at his friend and BLAM. DOA. My own friend is another. 2 years of a loaded gun sitting in a draw, and he thinks it's unloaded all that time. THAT is what I mean by "untrained". I'm not talking about some weekend warrior who goes to Blackwater or Thunder ranch and walks around with Molle gear all weekend. I'm talking about people who at the least have taken a basic NRA course, or been instructed by someone who has (like I plan to do with my son when he's old enough). You know several guys who hit the mag release on the draw, and one who forgot to take the safety off during a robbery. You know another who neglected to check the chamber of his weapon before pointing it at a dishwasher and firing a shot, and you expect anybody here to take your opinion as gospel? Those guys obviously are not competent in the use of firearms. You're gonna tell me that it was at some training class? Good. That's why those people are there. To have an instructor school them in the proper hand placement on the draw. Or maybe to advise them that the weapon they have chosen is not the right size for their hand, making it more likely that they will hit the mag release. I've seen some of those people in those classes. little old ladies or recently divorced women who are afraid of their ex's. Good for them that they are getting some instruction, but don't use them as examples of what could happen.

Mag releases have saved more people than have hurt them.

 

[kbm6893]

So, what exactly is a trained gun owner, and what is a responsible gun owner? I consider myself a responsible gun owner but I don't believe I am trained.

To me being trained means that you have attended a class such as Thunder Ranch, Front Sight, or something similar. I do not believe that everyone who wants to own a gun should have to go to one of these schools for training. Would they benefit from it, absolutely, that doesn't mean they are a moron and can't handle a gun safely without it.

I know the rules of gun safety, I practice drawing from concealment, tap rack drills, moving while firing, and so forth. I think this makes me more prepared and responsible but I do not consider myself "trained". If people follow gun safety rules then I do not think they need to be trained to be a safe and responsible gun owner.

I don't see how having one shot come from your gun in a life threating situation could possibly be worse than having no shots come from your gun. The argument that you wont know what to do from slide lock is silly. Practice by having a friend load your mags with snap caps randomly and do tap rack drills. If you do this you will have the motorskills ingrained into your body and it will be automatic problem solved.

Now on the other hand if someone pulls their mag disconnect equiped gun out to use it and the mag isn't fully seated and nothing happens when they pull the trigger how could this possibly be better than the other scenario? You still have a gun thats worth about as much as a rock, and if you panic like you seem to think everyone will you have the same problem as you would without the mag safety only you got no shots off instead of one. Again if you practice tap rack drills you have solved the same problem that the other guy had only you didn't get that first round off that may have stopped or slowed your attacker down enough to keep him from chopping you up with a machete.

So in my opinion the slide lock argument for the mag safety makes absolutly zero sense, and the only argument I can see for it is when an officer is fighting for or has already had his gun taken. Fine I can live with that if the police want them for this feature great for them. The situation in which this feature would be good for me I can not see at all, it's not as useless to me as the firing pin safety that I disabled on my 1911 but it almost is.

Those schools are largely scams, if you ask me. You pay lots of money to pretend you're Rambo for the weekend. Again, just my opinion. Last week on SWAT TV, they were at the SIG Sauer Academy teaching a bunch of Rambo wanna-be's what to do in the event of a terrorist attack. One of the instructors gets up holding an AK. he says "This is the weapon they will be using. If you can shoot one of them with your pistol, take their weapon and make it work against them". Who the hell is going to go up against a bunch of terrorists with a pistol, then take their Ak's and engage them with that? Pure fantasy.

And the slide lock argument was valid, but you just lack the experience to support it. The odds of you remembering to tactically reload are almost non-existent. even Buff, the robbery homicide cop who was kind enough to contribute his real world experiences, could only say 'about how many rounds he fired" and only tactically reloaded after the shooting was done before he reholstered. If you think you're going to remember to reload during a gunfight that you almost certainly won't ever get into, you are mistaken, ESPECIALLY since you haven't had any formal instruction. And you will be so terrified that you will probably drop the mag, or try to put it in backwards If you do, that one shot MIGHT stop the attacker, but in my experience seeing many people shot, it probably won't. Now you have an empty gun that will require two hands to reload since the slide isn't locked back. And you very well might not even realize the gun is empty, since the slide isn't locked back.

 

[LuddhaBuddha]

I never said anything about a tactical reload what I said was in the instance of a malfunction with a gun a tap-rack-ready is always the first thing you should do. If your gun is not working because the mag isn't seated or you have a dud round in the chamber which would be the two most common malfunctions. You will get back up and running by hitting the bottom of the magazine to make sure it is seated and racking the slide to make sure that a possible bad round or no round is replaced.

As I already said if you go to the range with a freind have them load a random mag with a snap cap you can practice malfuction drills. If you already have it ingrained in your motor fuction skills to do the tap rack procedure whenever the gun doesn't go bang, it wont matter how scared ****less you are, you are going to do it. Since you seem to be so concerned with using two hands to load a gun exactly how would you fix an unseated mag with one hand?

I do not understand how you seem to assume that you know what I or anyone else will do in a given situation, we are all different and respond differently to different situations. What real world experience do I need exactly to understand that if my gun isn't making loud booming sounds when I pull the trigger that something is wrong?

You seem to have a predjudice against what you call "weekend warriors" but are really just everyday people that want some instruction by people who either still train or have trained law enforcement and military personnel. There are a lot of private contractors who go to these training schools between contracts to keep themselfs sharp, would they be doing this if these schools are scams? To me you come off as having a very low opinion of people who are not in law enforcement, and think that all of our opinions can not be legit because we are clueless morons that should just leave everything up to the all knowing perfect police out there.

 

[Super Trucker]

kbm6893,
Enjoy your mag disconnect. I am positive that Jesus Christ himself would not be able to tell you they can be a disadvantage to some people with out you knowing more.
I made a comment about the locks on S&W revolvers being a bad idea and a fan boy of those had every excuse in the world why I was wrong. I posted a video of one malfunctioning that I saw with my own eyes and he still said I was wrong, just like you are doing in this case.

So as I said enjoy and I hope one doesn't ever let you down.


BTW:

Secondly, Detroit is a high crime city. Raids like the one you mention occasionally have unfortunate resolutions. And since we don't know the circumstances of how that round was fired, I choose to wait until i have more facts before I castigate the officer. But your bias is shining right through this computer screen.

Your comments are again about 6 planets away from reality. You said untrained people, should not have guns. I showed that a (highly trained mind you)swat members gun killed a 7 year old.
Bias this!
It was used as an example to prove you were wrong but you twist that however you want.

 

[kbm6893]

I never said anything about a tactical reload what I said was in the instance of a malfunction with a gun a tap-rack-ready is always the first thing you should do. If your gun is not working because the mag isn't seated or you have a dud round in the chamber which would be the two most common malfunctions. You will get back up and running by hitting the bottom of the magazine to make sure it is seated and racking the slide to make sure that a possible bad round or no round is replaced.

As I already said if you go to the range with a freind have them load a random mag with a snap cap you can practice malfuction drills. If you already have it ingrained in your motor fuction skills to do the tap rack procedure whenever the gun doesn't go bang, it wont matter how scared ****less you are, you are going to do it. Since you seem to be so concerned with using two hands to load a gun exactly how would you fix an unseated mag with one hand?

I do not understand how you seem to assume that you know what I or anyone else will do in a given situation, we are all different and respond differently to different situations. What real world experience do I need exactly to understand that if my gun isn't making loud booming sounds when I pull the trigger that something is wrong?

You seem to have a predjudice against what you call "weekend warriors" but are really just everyday people that want some instruction by people who either still train or have trained law enforcement and military personnel. There are a lot of private contractors who go to these training schools between contracts to keep themselfs sharp, would they be doing this if these schools are scams? To me you come off as having a very low opinion of people who are not in law enforcement, and think that all of our opinions can not be legit because we are clueless morons that should just leave everything up to the all knowing perfect police out there.

I do tap rack drills at the range. Sorry, but unless you do them ALOT, you're not going to have that ingrained in your muscle memory. Think you'd be as smooth when somebody is shooting at you? Ever try to get your key in the ignition when you are panicking? Not so easy, is it?

Look, the mag being unseated is a very rare occurence. I've shot a lot, and I haven't seen it. Mag catches are pretty stiff.

 

[kbm6893]

kbm6893,
Enjoy your mag disconnect. I am positive that Jesus Christ himself would not be able to tell you they can be a disadvantage to some people with out you knowing more.
I made a comment about the locks on S&W revolvers being a bad idea and a fan boy of those had every excuse in the world why I was wrong. I posted a video of one malfunctioning that I saw with my own eyes and he still said I was wrong, just like you are doing in this case.

So as I said enjoy and I hope one doesn't ever let you down.


BTW:
Your comments are again about 6 planets away from reality. You said untrained people, should not have guns. I showed that a (highly trained mind you)swat members gun killed a 7 year old.
Bias this!
It was used as an example to prove you were wrong but you twist that however you want.

I read the article about the raid. It wasn't the wrong apartment. The homicide fugitive was in that apartment and arrested. The SWAT officer had a "physical confrontation" with the 46 year old grandmother of the child. A round was fired. Unfortunate, for sure. I don't know if it was the cop's finger on that trigger or the grandmother. What i DO know is that the residents of that house had a murder suspect in there, and THAT is what caused the death of that little girl.

But you take the word of the bad guys over the cops.

And I am against the lock on S&W revolvers. i think they are ugly, and the recoil of a weapon MAY cause it to engage when it shouldn't. Not the same system as the mag disconnect.

 

[snw19_357]

I'm pretty sure those with an opinion on the pro's and con's of having a pistol with a magazine disconnect/safety have posted their thoughts on it.

 

[handejector]

I'm pretty sure those with an opinion on the pro's and con's of having a pistol with a magazine disconnect/safety have posted their thoughts on it.

I haven't.

I don't care for mag safeties. Never did.

Interesting how 'fads' change over the decades. In the 70's, there was NOT the multitude of autos to choose from that you guys have today. Chances are, if someone was carrying an auto(of any quality), it was a Browning HP, a 39, a 59, a Gov't Model, or a Walther PPK/S or PPK. Walthers and Gov't Mods did not have mag safeties. I can't remember anyone ever feeling the need to add one. The HP and the S&W's had them. The HP was a little irksome to remove it from, but many people did it. The S&W's could be done in 10 seconds. I had a little box full of them.
Nowadays, I prefer Sigs, and they don't have them (the models I own, anyway). Problem solved.

Disclaimer- I have stated no real opinion here, merely a preference.
I don't care if I am the only person on earth with that preference.
I don't care if you have the same preference.
I don't care if you do not have the same preference.
__________________________________________

All that said, this thread begs the question:
Why do people get wound so tight in internet discussions?
I mean, what exactly sets folks off- just the fact that others have different opinions, or the fact that they refuse to adopt your opinions/preferences?

It ain't that complicated.
If you see the merits in another's viewpoint and learn something new, and want to change your opinion, change it.
If you prefer to keep your original viewpoint, keep it.

On a board primarily filled with alpha males, you probably won't have much luck forcing people to agree with you when they are not inclined to do so.

Recess now. Play nice.

 

[LuddhaBuddha]

Lee, the fact that someone else has a different opinion than mine doesn't bother me at all. When someone tells me that I am being unsafe with my guns when I remove something like a mag safety because, someone else may get it and not know anything about it. Or when they assume to know me or what I am or am not capable, how much I train, or just generaly come off as thinking they are somehow better than me, it does.

I admit that there are pros and cons to mag safeties, internal locks, firing pins safeties, etc. When someone comes a long and cant see any faults and will twist everything into supporting their opinion it rubs me the wrong way. I did not participate in this to try and change anyones opinion on mag safties, only to show that there is another school of thought and that both schools do have some merit.

I do tap rack drills at the range. Sorry, but unless you do them ALOT, you're not going to have that ingrained in your muscle memory. Think you'd be as smooth when somebody is shooting at you? Ever try to get your key in the ignition when you are panicking? Not so easy, is it?

Look, the mag being unseated is a very rare occurence. I've shot a lot, and I haven't seen it. Mag catches are pretty stiff.

I'm sorry I didn't know that you were following me to the range and watching me all the time. How can you presume to know how many times I practice this, it could not possibly be as much as you right?

I'm done here, see yal in another thread.

 

[WR Moore]

Removing a magazine safety device sets up several potential problems.

One of which is that, if a discharge takes place that could reasonably be expected to have been prevented if the device was in place, you're in very deep trouble. Certainly from the civil liability standpoint, possibly from a criminal charge.

Secondly, in the event of a deliberate shooting, you'll be presenting yourself to the jury (of non-gunowners) as a reasonable and prudent person. Should the prosecuter be out for blood (and you probably wouldn't be in court otherwise), they're going to suggest that your intentional removal of a safety device is not consistant with the actions of a reasonable and prudent person. Particularly if you did it yourself without being a qualified armorer with that weapon.

It's another issue to deal with that you don't need at that time/place. But hey, it's your potential trial.

 

[kbm6893]

Look, the choice to buy a gun with a mag safety is up to the user. The issue I have with the whole debate is from the whole "what if i am doing a tactical reload and I need that one bullet in the 2 seconds that my gun is down?" crowd. I'm sorry, but the odds of that happening are so minute that they do not even merit a mention. I mean, how many times has that actually happened?

On the other hand, there is documented evidence that the mag release HAS prevented negligent discharges, and gun grabs, by both cops, and civilians.

Hearing testimony from casual gun owners (at best) doesn't really support the argument against them. If you want people to sway over to your side, present a valid argument that supports it. leave the Jack Bauer stuff at home.

And interjecting SWAT raid stories without even getting the whole story just makes you look foolish. You show me one case where a mag disconnect caused an accident, and I'll show you 100 that prevented one.

I am a firm believer in ownership and carry of firearms. I have a new S&W .357 on the way here now. My wife and I got a little too close to a black bear last week, and I think i FINALLY got her to go with me to the range. If it goes well, she'll be getting her carry permit. I will make sure she is well schooled in firearms. Something many other gun carriers should be doing, but don't.

And, Luddha: the three S&W semi auto's I have owned with mag disconnects have all behaved the same. If the mag release is pressed, the mag comes out forcibly. No way on any of those guns could a mag not be properly seated and still remain in the weapon. even an empty mag forcibly ejects.

 

[handejector]

Lee, the fact that someone else has a different opinion than mine doesn't bother me at al.

Not what the evidence shows.
Your next two sentences refute that- "When someone tells me that I am being unsafe with my guns when I remove something like a mag safety because, someone else may get it and not know anything about it. Or when they assume to know me or what I am or am not capable, how much I train, or just generaly come off as thinking they are somehow better than me, it does."

That is opinion, and it obviously bothers you.
Then, your quote of kbm, and the reply to him proves it further.
Let it go.
He is not going to change his mind.
Obviously, you are not going to change yours.

That is fine- all of you should state your opinion and move along.
Keeping it going can turn a very informative thread into drivel.

Look, the choice to buy a gun with a mag safety is up to the user.

Ding-Ding-Ding!
We have a winner!

The issue I have with the whole debate is from the whole "what if i am doing a tactical reload and I need that one bullet in the 2 seconds that my gun is down?" crowd. I'm sorry, but the odds of that happening are so minute that they do not even merit a mention. I mean, how many times has that actually happened?

On the other hand, there is documented evidence that the mag release HAS prevented negligent discharges, and gun grabs, by both cops, and civilians.

Hearing testimony from casual gun owners (at best) doesn't really support the argument against them. If you want people to sway over to your side, present a valid argument that supports it. leave the Jack Bauer stuff at home.

I never thought to ask Jack his opinion. I think I know what it would be, but I don't really care. I made up my mind more than 40 years ago, and probably won't change it.

My simple philosophy-
If I ever find myself anywhere, anytime, with one of my semiautos that has a mag, then I have as many shots as the mag contains.
If I ever find myself anywhere, anytime, with one of my semiautos that does not have a mag, then I at least have a single shot pistol, assuming I possess at least one round, instead of a very poorly shaped baton.

Now, you can all take that opinion along with two aspirin and see if you feel better in the morning.
The aspirin are probably going to do you more good than my opinion.