S&W Model 3 1st Russian with some questions

[Dhs The IV]

Hi I joined this forum after a recommendation from a member, I've browsed it a lot and pulled a lot of good information on it. I'm fairly new to S&W revolvers but I am pretty much all in at this point. I like all of them from the tip ups to the modern guns. Recently I came across a model 3 at what I think is a good price wallowing in the antique counter no one looks at. I didn't know anything really specific about model 3s a few weeks ago except a little about the Schofield. Anyway it's had the barrel cut to 5" and the front sight soldered back in place. I believe the nickel is original because the extractor is blued. It has matching assembly #s on everything, the grips don't match though they number about 10000 to early. It has the steps in the cylinder and it was the tag said Russian. Cylinder length confirms it. But it's not stamped Russian model and I was wondering if that's common? Most of the ones I've seen are. Serial number is 31575. I'm also looking for a leaf spring for the cylinder stop. I've tried Jacks first and a lot of other places and had no luck. I've tried to learn a lot about all the old models since picking this up. Any information you guys can provide would be greatly appreciated thank you

 

[delcrossv]

Welcome to the forum!

I don't believe these were stamped with the caliber, but I'm a top break newb.

I did post a set of parts suppliers on this (Antiques) forum not too long ago.

Here ya go. scroll down.
Parts

 

[Oyeboteb]

Try ebay...someone very recently had some Model 3 parts listed, had a Mainspring, Latch, some other odds and ends, no idea if they had the Leaf Spring you need, but check them out...

Good looking old S & W..!

Commercial ( 1st? Model I think? ) Model 3s in .44 Russian would just have the basic S & W Patent into on the Barrel Rib Top and not have the Russian info.

Quite a few of them got cut down to be shorter Barrels back when.

 

[glowe]

Welcome to the Forum. From what patent dates are visible, it would be a Model 3 Russian, 1st Model. Only the first 20,000 were Russian contract, so your serial number would be appropriate for the commercial examples up to the end of production around serial number 32,800. Your Model 3 would most likely been manufactured the last year of production - 1874, but would have had a later ship date.

Caliber stampings did not appear on most models of S&W until around 1900. Stepped chambers are your key to correctly stating the gun is chambered in 44 Russian. I am not sure, but I think the Russian Model stampings on the barrel ribs started with the Model 3, 2nd Model.

There are simply no parts anywhere for these guns. Only a very lucky find now and then. You can get that revolver back to working order fastest by having the spring made, or make it yourself if you are familiar with using spring steel. Otherwise a machinist or gunsmith is your best bet. I see the bug screw is also missing on the left side of the pivot pin. It keeps the hinge tight and it should be replaced. Again, a machinist can make a new screw. Good luck

 

[Dhs The IV]

Thanks for the info, I've located replacement screws and a new pawl from Mr. Charles Pate. I've talked to a local gunsmith and he said he can probably fabricate one. I tried my hand at making one and it's close but not quite.

 

[Oyeboteb]

Thanks for the info, I've located replacement screws and a new pawl from Mr. Charles Pate. I've talked to a local gunsmith and he said he can probably fabricate one. I tried my hand at making one and it's close but not quite.

Good going!

Let us know how it turns out..!

.44 Russian seems to have become my favorite Cartridge, and it is fun and easy to Load for.

Looking forward to "The Range Report"!

 

[tlawler]

Welcome to the forum from Port Charlotte

 

[BMur]

Welcome aboard

Welcome to the forum.

Those chambers look very large to me. Are you sure it's a 44 Russian/ 44 American? Looks more like a 44WCF. Alteration? Could be the photo though.

Better ask Phil. He'll tell ya.


Hey Tlawler. I served on the USS Downes FF 1070 as my first tour on the other coast.


Murph

 

[Dhs The IV]

Welcome to the forum.

Those chambers look very large to me. Are you sure it's a 44 Russian? Looks more like a 44WCF. Alteration? Could be the photo though.

Better ask Phil. He'll tell ya.


Hey Tlawler. I served on the USS Downes FF 1070 as my first tour on the other coast.


Murph

Honestly no I'm not a 100%. I'm not super familiar with the old calibers. I'm going off the tag and the step in the cylinders.

 

[Kinman]

Welcome aboard, nice entry. I've also recently been bit by .44 Russian. It is a very comfortable cartridge to shoot and works easily with black powder, there are also substitute smokeless loads you can work up. I have found that black powder seems to work best, its what they were developed for. You would find that black powder gives a recoil that is more of a push than smokeless. I found the smokeless recoil to be sharper which in my mind would not be appropriate for an older firearm. I shoot black powder more than smokeless and am very familiar with it. I would think that if you were new to reloading that it would be a great cartridge to get started on.
The other thing about .44 Russian is that it chambers in any firearm chambered for .44 Special and .44 Magnum, it may work in some I am not aware of but I have been told that due to its low recoil has become popular with some of the cowboy action guys. I know of a guy that shoots .44 Russian because it does not flare up his arthritis. Its cartridge length relative to .44 Special is comparable to .44 Special and .44 Magnum.
Good luck and I hope you get a chance to enjoy shooting it.

 

[Dhs The IV]

I'm not sure it'll ever be in shooting shape but maybe some day. Oh and the cylinder length is correct for Russian I don't know what length 44WCF would be. The assembly number is correct but it could have been monkeyed with at some point.

 

[glowe]

You posted that there is a step in the chamber, and if so it is a 44 Russian. The Model 3 American platform was never offered in 44-40, only 44 American and 44 Russian, with a few 44 Henry rimfires also built.

Forgot to add that the 44 American/Russian Old Old Model has a cylinder that was only 1 3/8" long and the standard 44-40 round was 1.59".

 

[tlawler]

Welcome to the forum.

Those chambers look very large to me. Are you sure it's a 44 Russian/ 44 American? Looks more like a 44WCF. Alteration? Could be the photo though.

Better ask Phil. He'll tell ya.


Hey Tlawler. I served on the USS Downes FF 1070 as my first tour on the other coast.

Murph

Hi Murph..."other coast" meaning San Diego, I assume?
Brewton was out of Pearl, but we made a few port calls in Dago. Last one while I was aboard was bringing back the remains of the Vietnam Unknown Soldier.


I'm surprised Sal hasn't checked in yet.

 

[BMur]

Altered chambers?

Yeah,
I'm only making an observation regarding the chambers? If I had a dime for every time I've seen a drilled out chamber? Well, you know the rest. There are even a few active threads with drilled out chambers on the forum right now.

Extremely common with the 44 caliber. Most often to adapt to the 44 WCF from whatever previous caliber it was.

Also something for "ALL" collectors to watch out for.
After seeing so many I honestly believe it was due to a cartridge availability issue during period of use. So many Winchesters were chambered in that caliber and it was quite a bit more powerful so you have to look closely when you purchase antique 44's.

"MANY, MANY" have been altered!!!

Tlawler:
Yeah, the Downes was in San Diego when I served aboard. Went through Pearl a few times on West Pac steaming/Plane guarding for the Ranger. It wasn't fun during those years that's for sure. Life was much better when I cross decked to a Cruiser. Never went DIW like the Downes did. Watching the battle group steam on and leave us behind. Pathetic. Single screw Knox class DE's weren't exactly Cadillac's. More like Targets! That's why they would always assign us "Picket station".... 500 miles North of the Battle Group...."BAIT" for the migs.

Murph

 

[Dhs The IV]

I understand and appreciate the insight. Like I said I didn't know much about model 3s when I bought it. The price was right and I thought it would be cool to own a model 3. But man has it opened a whole new can of worms. Before I was mostly looking at post war k and n frames. Now I'm shopping for 1s, 3s, safety hammerless, tip ups, top breaks, triple locks. It really made me appreciate the antique guns S&W made. I just love that top break extractor. Problem is now I at least doubled the number of guns I wanna buy. Oh I did wonder would you guys describe this as bent back or no?

 

[BMur]

Knowing what to look for

DHS The IV,
I'm not trying to make you feel bad about the purchase. I honestly like the gun. It has a ton of finish. Presents itself very well. I would be proud to own it myself. I'm just trying to help you out to know what to look for with these large caliber "Antique Era" 44's. Any make or model is applicable. They can all be found altered!

It can also be a point of negotiation from the seller? I've used it "many" times when I find a gun that has been altered. I personally do not lose interest like some. I still see the value in this Historical piece of Smith & Wesson History. I also honestly believe that since there are so many of these 44's that are altered to 44WCF? That it does have a very Historical origin to the alteration. Like I mentioned in a previous post? It wasn't like it is today back in the Old West. Finding rounds in small towns for guns must have been a hit/miss proposition.... The 44 WCF was extremely popular and in fact many Rifle/Pistol combinations are known to history. This happened for a reason! So I honestly believe that there is "Historical Significance" to this alteration. It wasn't done yesterday! and it's an excellent point of discussion regarding the huge number of them out there and when it was done, etc.

Often even the sellers don't realize that it's been caliber altered. So if you are nice about it and bring it to their attention? Often times you can make a deal. What I normally say is: " I really like this antique but I'm not sure that you know? that its been altered from the original caliber"? Then show it to them and say, Even with the alteration I'm still interested in the piece? What's your best price? That way nobody gets insulted and you often get a great deal.

Murph.

 

[Dhs The IV]

Oh no offense taken sir and I really appreciate any answers I can get even if they raise more questions or aren't particularly the answers I was hoping for. I obviously was hoping it was as stock as possible, I hadn't even considered it had been bored through to change the caliber! I don't intend to sell it but try to restore and that being the case I think I can tell you guys I paid 250 for it. So no matter what I think I got my money's worth out of it. I bought it not really expecting to be able to shoot it. But the action works and if I can the extractor to work I'll be really pleased. Everything after that is bonus land. But you guys really have me scratching my head now with the chambering. It may have been redrilled. It chambers a 45 ACP, I was just using that to get an idea of measurements because I don't own calipers. I looked at the chambers on some other Russians and yes mine do look a little large. I took a better picture and you can see the machining marks before the step.

 

[BMur]

44 WCF

Yeah,
That's exactly what you would see with the 44WCF rechambering. They actually did a good job. The base of the 44WCF is 45caliber. It's identical to the .45 Colt or Schofield until the case bottlenecks down to .44 cal.

If it was 44 Russian what you would see is about 3/4 of the way down the chamber would be a "Case Stop" or what this forum likes to call a step? but basically its where the case stops and the throat begins. When you get use to looking at a 44 Russian chamber it is totally different than a 44 WCF.

Then when you've seen several hundred of these altered cylinders? You get use to recognizing them. The primary give away is the "HUGE" base diameter. 45cal? Exactly what you are showing with the 45ACP cartridge. You get use to seeing that diameter....The difference to me is obvious.

OH, let me try to head something else off at the pass OK? As far as case length? Yes the 44WCF is longer than the 44 Russian and when you chamber a 44WCF in this cylinder you will notice that it will stick out just a little bit? Remembering that when this gun was manufactured it was OH....150 years ago give or take? So all the rounds were lead. It takes very little effort to rub the flat point lead bullet against a rock to shorten the overall case length to fit this chamber.. would take about 2 mins. of soft rubbing and it will chamber and fit perfectly.

Also, they had a "HUGE" number of reloading tools available back then that were manufactured by many companies. "ALL" of them would allow you to push the lead bullet deeper into the brass case so that it would chamber in this cylinder. Zero effort. Easy problem to solve. Case length in a book isn't always the way it was in the OLD WEST!

****Oh, one more piece of advice from an old timer? Since this cylinder has been altered to a larger case diameter? I strongly recommend that if you decide to shoot it? Only use black powder or Black powder substitute. The 44 WCF round is quite powerful in a black powder load. I would not play with a Smokeless load with this alteration.

Murph

 

[Dhs The IV]

I don't reload (yet anyway), is 44WCF black powder hard to come by? I was hoping maybe to put some 44 Russian through it since it sounds mild but in light of the new information I don't think that's happening. On a positive update i fixed the extractor thanks to Mr. Pate and tomorrow I'm picking up the cylinder locking spring and then this old gun will be whole again.

 

[Oyeboteb]

I don't reload (yet anyway), is 44WCF black powder hard to come by? I was hoping maybe to put some 44 Russian through it since it sounds mild but in light of the new information I don't think that's happening. On a positive update i fixed the extractor thanks to Mr. Pate and tomorrow I'm picking up the cylinder locking spring and then this old gun will be whole again.

.44 Russian Cartridge cases are now too small in diameter for the enlarged Cylinder Chambers you have...and firing them would be nasty and likely ruin the cases, as well as, with the Chamber now being too long for .44 Russian, you'd have a lot of blow by and probably leading occurring. I would not do it if it were me.

.44 - 40 Cartridges, are too long for your Cylinder, and the Bullet Noses would be sticking out of the other end of the Cylinder.

As Murph relays, you could cut off or saw off or otherwise remove the ends of the Bullets for .44 - 40 Cartridges, to shorten them enough to fit, otherwise you will not be able to use them since they are too long.

I think it would be a good idea to get a measurement of your Barrel's "Groove to Groove" diameter, before electing any Cartridges to try.