I have heard and read on the forums about the Model 65s in .357 the forcing cone could crack? It hasnt happened on the 3 and 4 inch SS that I have and I been using either 125 or 158 grain bullets in mine. They both were made in the late 70s and to late 80s. Can someone tell me what the real truth is on the Model 65s please? Thank you. rz625-8
S&W Model 65s, what kind of .357 ammo would be best for older revolvers
- Thread starter rz625-8
- Start date
Register to hide this ad
I have heard and read on the forums about the Model 65s in .357 the forcing cone could crack? It hasnt happened on the 3 and 4 inch SS that I have and I been using either 125 or 158 grain bullets in mine. They both were made in the late 70s and to late 80s. Can someone tell me what the real truth is on the Model 65s please? Thank you. rz625-8
Erich
Member
Only time I've ever heard of forcing cones cracking in these K-frame .357s was with 125-grainers . . . and I suspect that there was some improperly cleaned leading in those forcing cones as well.
I don't use light bullets in my .357s anymore, though, so I can't comment on how they work in my 65 over time. I used a few in the Model 13 that I used to have, and never had a problem in it.
I don't use light bullets in my .357s anymore, though, so I can't comment on how they work in my 65 over time. I used a few in the Model 13 that I used to have, and never had a problem in it.
Alk8944
US Veteran
There has been an abundance of anecdotal evidence, going back quite a few years on various forums and the gun magazines, that cracked barrel shanks have been experienced with .357 Magnum K Frame revolvers. The common thread has been that the vast majority experienced this when shooting 125 gr, jacketed bullet loaded ammunition in these guns.
There is a very old adage that states that only a fool refuses to learn from the mistakes of others. Why not just avoid the use of 125 gr jacketed ammunition in your gun and substantially reduce the likelyhood of damaging your gun? Since S&W is no longer making K Frame 357s replacement barrels are difficult to impossible to find when a replacement is needed due to a cracked barrel, Model 19s particularly so. Stick to 158 gr. bullets and everything will be fine, Besides, that is the weight bullet the sights on your gun were calculated to shoot properly with.
Like Erick, I have not had a problem with any of my 357s that I have been shooting since 1961 or so when I bought my first one, but I have rarely shot 125 gr. bullets form any of them. For that matter, probably 98%+ over this entire period have been cast. Mostly I have not experienced significant leading, and do not consider this the great hoodoo that many modern-day shooters want to make it out to be. Leading, tp whatever degree, is just a part of shooting lead bullets. It is funny that it didn't seem to be written about as a terrible problem until jacketed bullets became widely available starting in the 1960s.
FWIW, no model-marked S&W is an "Old" gun. That takes being older than aprox. 1920 when they began heat-treating of cylinders.
There is a very old adage that states that only a fool refuses to learn from the mistakes of others. Why not just avoid the use of 125 gr jacketed ammunition in your gun and substantially reduce the likelyhood of damaging your gun? Since S&W is no longer making K Frame 357s replacement barrels are difficult to impossible to find when a replacement is needed due to a cracked barrel, Model 19s particularly so. Stick to 158 gr. bullets and everything will be fine, Besides, that is the weight bullet the sights on your gun were calculated to shoot properly with.
Like Erick, I have not had a problem with any of my 357s that I have been shooting since 1961 or so when I bought my first one, but I have rarely shot 125 gr. bullets form any of them. For that matter, probably 98%+ over this entire period have been cast. Mostly I have not experienced significant leading, and do not consider this the great hoodoo that many modern-day shooters want to make it out to be. Leading, tp whatever degree, is just a part of shooting lead bullets. It is funny that it didn't seem to be written about as a terrible problem until jacketed bullets became widely available starting in the 1960s.
FWIW, no model-marked S&W is an "Old" gun. That takes being older than aprox. 1920 when they began heat-treating of cylinders.
Spotteddog
Member
Stick with anything above the weight of the full house Remington 125 JHP flame throwers and you'll be fine. I've always believed it was a combination of LOTS of burning powder, coupled with a short(ish) bullet transitioning the B/C gap that was at the heart of the problem. Throw in as Erich said, left over forcing cone deposits, or a gun that had been whacked through enough D/A strokes to take her just slightly out of time, relatively stiff unforgiving jacket material and "poof"! Cracked forcing cone.
So, a longer bullet, or a slower bullet, or a perfectly timed gun, or a softer bullet, takes away one of the legs of the stool that it needs to cause damage.
JOMO though?
So, a longer bullet, or a slower bullet, or a perfectly timed gun, or a softer bullet, takes away one of the legs of the stool that it needs to cause damage.
JOMO though?
flop-shank
US Veteran
Great posts above, guys.
rz, if you want a bullet that's a little lighter than 158s, try Corbon's 140 gr. JHP. The Sierra JHP that bullet uses should deliver 125 gr. style secondary fragments and Corbon loads hot.
I have yet to play around with that ctg., but I just can't see it not working well.
rz, if you want a bullet that's a little lighter than 158s, try Corbon's 140 gr. JHP. The Sierra JHP that bullet uses should deliver 125 gr. style secondary fragments and Corbon loads hot.
G
Guest
I have seen a three(3) of those Cracked Forcing Cones on Model 19s, from the '70s, and they had one thing in common - The same Brand of 125gr ammo. Of course, now days it is much easier to paint the picture with the same very large brush and say that any hot(or what you might call "Super") 125gr load is bad and that any "K" Frame .357 Magnum is going to crack the first time you shoot those "Nasty 125 gr bullets" through one.
As to what's best in your particular gun, well, that's something you are going to have to figure out for yourself. Personally, I like the Federal HydraShok bullets and the ammo they come in. The HydraShoks are what I "carry" and believe in.
As to what's best in your particular gun, well, that's something you are going to have to figure out for yourself. Personally, I like the Federal HydraShok bullets and the ammo they come in. The HydraShoks are what I "carry" and believe in.
Hey fellas, I started reading this thread and over the years I never really gave much thought to the 125gr bullets, I know you all are referring to a peticular model here, but are these a poor choice for other Smith 357's ?? Over the years I have fed my 686 with all kinds of ammo with no ill effects, and I have a bunch of 125gr bullets yet to burn up, not trying to hijack the thread but thought I,d ask seeing you were discussing this. Thanks
Erich
Member
The L-frames (of which your 686 is one) were re-designed from the smaller K-frames to be fine with any .357 Mag ammo. No worries, mate.
Erich
Member
¡De nada!
You've got a great gun, amigo!
I really want to say thanks for all the info on this and awhile back,I bought for all my S&Ws and Ruger GP100 and SP101s the 158SJSPs for target and defense loads. And that I have tested in my 65s and the are good to go. Thanks again everyone for your info on this thread. rz625-8
Andy Taylor
Member
The 586/686 L frames were specifically developed to correct this percieved shortcoming of the K frame magnums.
Doug M.
Member
To the best of my recollection, the damage issues also involved LE agencies which shot a TON of ammo. NYSP comes to mind. They shot a lot of full charge ammo in academy and in-service training - way more than most other agencies, as a result of some bad litigation outcomes over their training in the 60s. (At least they took the right path over the litigation outcomes instead of wringing their hands and whining like most LE agencies.)
I had a couple of troopers and an agency lawyer describe their program to me. A brief intro to shooting with .22s (1 day), 1 day of .38 wadcutters, and then nothing but full house ammo thereafter, both in the academy and after. They would shoot their K frames loose, but it took a lot more ammo than most of us shoot. (I want to say it was somewhere over 5K rounds to failure, maybe 10K, but my memory is questionable. I have no idea if they still do that volume - that was years ago, before they left revolvers behind. I'd hate to think what it costs, although it would be a lot less than lost officers and bad lawsuits, even if one included the cost of a 5 year or so service life and replacing the guns.)
While I would not want to make a habit of a lot of shooting of those hot 125 grain JHPs in a K frame, I would not hesitate to shot enough of them to be confident, and then carry them for serious use. It is not a "fun" load to shoot, at least for me - but it has a good reputation. (If I recall right, the really hot load was the Remington SJHP 125 grain. I may still have some around. The flash even during the day was staggering.) I don't think NYSP carried those; my admittedly flawed memory is that they had some 158 grain HP back then (late 70s, early 80s).
The 125 grain .357Sig load is similar to the old .357 Magnum 125 grain in velocity, etc, and also has a good reputation as a stopper. I carry it in my G33, but again, it is NOT fun to shoot, especially as I get older. The first time I shot that pistol, I put about 150 rounds through it - loud, staggering blast, etc. My hand was red the rest of the day, with the imprint of the grip pounded in to it. However, I don't recall it beating up my shoulders as a few hundred rounds of .45ACP does now.
I would not be too worried about 1000 total rounds of that ammo through a K frame. However, if you want to shoot a lot and maintain proficiency with carry ammo, you may want to look in a different direction.
I had a couple of troopers and an agency lawyer describe their program to me. A brief intro to shooting with .22s (1 day), 1 day of .38 wadcutters, and then nothing but full house ammo thereafter, both in the academy and after. They would shoot their K frames loose, but it took a lot more ammo than most of us shoot. (I want to say it was somewhere over 5K rounds to failure, maybe 10K, but my memory is questionable. I have no idea if they still do that volume - that was years ago, before they left revolvers behind. I'd hate to think what it costs, although it would be a lot less than lost officers and bad lawsuits, even if one included the cost of a 5 year or so service life and replacing the guns.)
While I would not want to make a habit of a lot of shooting of those hot 125 grain JHPs in a K frame, I would not hesitate to shot enough of them to be confident, and then carry them for serious use. It is not a "fun" load to shoot, at least for me - but it has a good reputation. (If I recall right, the really hot load was the Remington SJHP 125 grain. I may still have some around. The flash even during the day was staggering.) I don't think NYSP carried those; my admittedly flawed memory is that they had some 158 grain HP back then (late 70s, early 80s).
The 125 grain .357Sig load is similar to the old .357 Magnum 125 grain in velocity, etc, and also has a good reputation as a stopper. I carry it in my G33, but again, it is NOT fun to shoot, especially as I get older. The first time I shot that pistol, I put about 150 rounds through it - loud, staggering blast, etc. My hand was red the rest of the day, with the imprint of the grip pounded in to it. However, I don't recall it beating up my shoulders as a few hundred rounds of .45ACP does now.
I would not be too worried about 1000 total rounds of that ammo through a K frame. However, if you want to shoot a lot and maintain proficiency with carry ammo, you may want to look in a different direction.
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
I agree with the above posts, stay away from 125gr bullets and lighter and you will be fine with your M65. Besides, the fixed sights on your M65 were zeroed in with 158gr bullets anyway.
photoman
Member
I carried a 3" Model 65 for some time and always used 125gr JHP in .357 Magnum, either Remington SJHP or Gold Dot. No worries.
That Remington load was one of the best performers ever.
That Remington load was one of the best performers ever.
Horseless Trooper
Member
Doug M, your memory is not too far off. The NYSP carried the 158 SP in their magnums. They carried FMJ in the Walther 380's the Narks used and 115 Silvertips in the Model 92's the MRT(swat) used. The NYSP didn't go with hollowpoints for the rank and file until the Glock was adopted.
