S&W PC 3rd Gen vs CZ Shadow 2

[DMcBB]

Hi Team 3rd Gen!
As much as we all love our S&W metal framed TDA pistols, we all know that S&W has embraced polymer and left our beloved 3rd gens behind. I enjoy my S&W 3rd generation pistols (and my 1st Gen and my M&Ps and my S&W revolvers and my dad’s old model 1000 shotgun) but I’m not a brand loyalist, or maybe I’m only a little bit of one. Anyway, my eyes wandered over towards the CZ side of things, since they still make and support TDA pistols. I ended up buying a Shadow 2 and putting some Cajun Gun Works parts in to lighten the trigger pull. I haven’t had it to the range yet, but it feels great in the hand, has a really nice trigger and great fiber optic sights. In short, it’s really nice! (And it better be for the price!)

So my question is, how does the Shadow 2 compare against the old S&W Performance Center pistols, specifically the full sized models rather than the Shorties. I briefly had a Shorty 40 and it felt great in the hand and had nice balance and tight tolerances, but the heavy SA trigger pull didn’t agree with me.

Do any of you have experience with both? As much as I’d love a PPC or Target Champion, the prices they go for these days are crazy, plus there’s no factory support and no real Performance Center anyway…. What do you think? How do they compare?

 

[Old_Cop]

I have a Shadow and am favorably impressed. Not sure that it needs the Cajun treatment. Even 15 years ago I refused to spend the money on a PPC, now at my age I would never use it in competition.

How can CZ produce the Shadow for the price that they set and S&W doesn't have anything comparable. I guess that Smith being publicly traded has no need of a flagship line of pistols.

 

[OKFC05]

USPSA competitors choose the CZ. I've shot both the pistols in question, (friend has the full size PPC 9mm) and I may be the only person on this site that does not have or want any 3rd gen S&W. (Ducking as I speak)

 

[Sevens]

I think you have found most likely the BEST thing on the market to “feed the itch” if the itch is a desire for a handgun that brings the kind of thing that the S&W Performance Center Limited pistols brings, but is still in production and has the backing of a good company with viable service. And if you want to have a newly made gun.

I have a Tac Sport and my shooting bro has a Shadow 2. As shipped, both of these fall short of my PC Limited pistols, but they don’t fall short by a lot, and depending on the taste and preference of the shooter, they could be argued as “close enough.”

There’s many categories in which you could choose to compare them. And each person has their own idea of specifically which categories are most important or how they should be ranked.

In slide to frame fit, feel, smoothness, I think the PC guns win here. In on paper accuracy, I’ll argue that it MUST be a tie because until you have wrung out an array of handloads (or selected a random control factory ammo, which I’d never do!) then either could win on any given day. In trigger feel, I think the CZ double action will absolutely beat any of the S&W double action, including all/any of the PC guns. However the S&W PC Limited guns are single action only, and as-shipped for both, the PC Limited is (again, in my experience) better. Start working with Cajun parts and I’m certain that the CZ could be made better than the PC Limited trigger.

If you want parts and accessory support or possible failure service, warranty or hahaha ANYTHING from the manufacturer, then this is no race. CZ wins here and S&W does not finish the race and could not start the race. If you buy a PC Limited gun, you will need a truly talented craftsman willing to take on the project if you have a problem that you cannot fix yourself.

If you want exclusivity and the mystique of a very short-printed and iconic/historic pistol, the CZ simply cannot approach what the PC Limited gun brings. Any time you can run to a website and have a new gun shipped in five clicks of a mouse, exclusivity does not exist. And I certainly understand if this is lost on many, but it’s no less the truth.

I got my Tac Sport 2-1/2 years ago and I got my PC 4006 Limited a few months after, both in .40cal. These two are good to pit against each other. Both are full size, single action double stack high end target handguns and chambered for the same round.

So as I’ve been trying lots of different handloads, it’s been my routine to bring them both and send the ammo through both.

The PC Limited gun is a little more selective in what ammo it wants, and when it likes one I’ve made, it’s a more accurate handgun than my Tac Sport and with a much better trigger. The Tac Sport holds significantly more ammo in it (17+1 to 11+1) and the Tac Sport is larger and heavier, so it’s a little quicker when shooting fast.

I shoot the Tac Sport more often and more rounds down range. That’s because it is absolutely replaceable and for HALF the money and it’s fun to shoot. If I had to pick one of them to show off and tell a story about or shoot the smallest group on a bet, the 4006 Limited is the pick for sure. (Of the two! The best pick would be my PC 845 Limited.)

So that’s my long answer.

If you want the kind of quality and experience that approaches and/or somewhat matches a PC Limited target gun, and you want a newly made and company backed gun, I don’t think there exists a better choice than one of CZ’s higher end guns for sure.

I’ll end with this… and I am hesitant to say it on an open forum. But there -WAS- a PC Limited gun that was a freaking CHEAP whale of a deal in comparison to the 845, 3566 Limited, 4006 Limited, PPC-9 and 952. That was the 5-inch target PC 945. These used to sell all day long at $1100-$1300 and every single one of them was a damn DEAL. That secret seems to be out and the price is headed toward $2k with a bullet. If you can buy a CZ under $1700 that can hang with a 945 on a target from a sandbag rest, please show me.

 

[Sevens]

USPSA competitors choose the CZ. I've shot both the pistols in question, (friend has the full size PPC 9mm) and I may be the only person on this site that does not have or want any 3rd gen S&W. (Ducking as I speak)

Nothing wrong with that and no need to duck!

If I were shooting in competition and treating a handgun to the volume and speed of shooting that it demands, I wouldn't use a somewhat obscure, long out of production and absolutely NOT factory backed high dollar collectible handgun either. And the CZ is a fantastic choice.

And if you don't want any 3rd Gens, that makes nearly everyone active in this part of the forum smile, one less other guy chasing their favorites.

I think it's a misnomer or or misleading at the least to lump the true Performance Center and especially the Limited target guns in with "3rd Gens" because, while they share some parts, they certainly are not just 3rd Gens. And if an argument erupts claiming that they must be 3rd Gens, then someone will have to answer for the 952 and 945 and that's going to take some level of fraud or deceit to claim that they too are 3rd Gens.

 

[Sevens]

How can CZ produce the Shadow for the price that they set and S&W doesn't have anything comparable. I guess that Smith being publicly traded has no need of a flagship line of pistols.

We've seen where Smith & Wesson recently showed record profits and record sales. The only thing as busy as S&W tupperware gun production is the S&W customer service center that fixes them.

The Performance Center was lightning in a bottle. Companies change and evolve, people in them matter as much/more than anything and zero of those PC people exist in the day to day operations of Smith & Wesson.

Even back when the PC did exist, S&W had one goal above all other goals -- make money and lots of it. The Performance Center was probably a whole lot more passion executed by real human people that had a drive to make amazing stuff. It was likely never all that profitable for S&W and by 2009, it was ended. It's so far in the rear view mirror that "curio and relic" should apply if not for the BATFE and their strict rules about age.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Well, I don't necessarily have a dog in this fight but, yes, I'm a 3rd Gen fan, big time, and the only new gun that I bought in the last few years was a TDA, .45 ACP caliber, CZ replica, made in Turkey, and it's a very fine gun, actually.

SAR K2 C

 

[ars1876]

Cz all the way.

 

[DMcBB]

How can CZ produce the Shadow for the price that they set and S&W doesn't have anything comparable. I guess that Smith being publicly traded has no need of a flagship line of pistols.

This is a great question. I have to assume that labor is cheaper in the Czech Republic than in the US, and that must help bring costs down. Regarding the flagship line for S&W, I would think that’s the M&P line, maybe with the Performance Center logo thrown on as added bling.

I am curious about how much it costs to produce a metal framed pistol vs a polymer pistol and how that impacts profitability. The M&P line are certainly great deals, even if they aren’t everyone’s cup of tea.

 

[Sevens]

Asking because I truly have no idea…

Isn’t CZ making some of their line here in the USA, or are all their actual CZ branded models made in Eastern Europe?

 

[DMcBB]

Asking because I truly have no idea…

Isn’t CZ making some of their line here in the USA, or are all their actual CZ branded models made in Eastern Europe?

As far as I know, CZ pistols are made in Europe. Dan Wesson pistols are made in NY state. And… CZ probably bought Colt at least partly to get some US manufacturing for their pistol line.

 

[stansdds]

I do not wish to knock the S&W PC line, but I will be honest. When it comes to how they fit my hand, the CZ-75 pattern wins by a wide margin. I have a CZ-75 knockoff, it's an old TZ-75 Series 88. For a double stack pistol, the only thing that is even small in the grip is the Browning Hi-Power. The CZ grip is very comfortable in my hands, perhaps even besting by a thin margin the S&W 39/39-/x39 single stack pistols. There is also a lot of aftermarket support for the CZ-75 pattern pistols, not so much for the S&W line.

 

[mattallamerican]

cz might be the best value for the dollar out there

 

[panther]

I've had standard CZ models that shoot like champs. CZ's got a good reputation for service too.
CZ is based in Kansas City, KS. I don't know if they do any manufacturing there. I have been hoping that their purchase of Colt would mean they'd move them out of the liberal, anti-gun East Coast.

 

[clang444]

I'm not a competition shooter. I own a CZ pre-B model 85 and this PC Tactical .40:

The S&W is a much better gun - fit, finish, trigger pull, accuracy, etc, but the CZ 85 is no slouch. I wouldn't trade my S&W for a Shadow 2, but I don't think I could afford to buy another one if something happened to it. I'd probably wind up with either the Shadow 2 or Walther Q5 steel frame if I needed to replace it.

(I am of course ignoring the fact that my S&W is a .40 and the CZ is a 9mm.)

I would be interested to hear how the CZ Shadow 2 compares to the Walther Q5 Steel Frame...

 

[batman4706]

About the only thing in 9MM that is better than my CZ Accu Shadow 2 is my STI Staccato Duo P. I have a 952-1 but I can't compare it to the other two since they both have red dots. My favorite target gun is still my 52-2.

 

[BAM-BAM]

I have a two Shorty-9s a SD-9 and a DPA 5906 from the 1990's Performance Center.

I have a stock CZ 85B and a Kadet .22

A bunch of 3rd Gen Smith autos.



The PC guns are the best..... hand built by 20th Century craftsmen.

The 3rd Gen autos are "Service pistols."

The CZ are stock and very nice..... at least as good as the 3rd Gen Service pistols.


Check out CZ's rifles............................. best bang for the buck going!!!!

 

[clang444]

Here's a non-Performance Center 3rd Gen that will give the CZ a run for it's money:

It's a 5906 with a 5" slide, night sites, mag well and tactical mag release. The .40 Tactical pictured above is mine and I wanted a 9mm version of it so I put one together myself when a few 5" slides became available from someone on this site years ago. Not quite as accurate as the .40, but close. The .40 from the PC does have a Briley bushing while my 9mm does not.

I wish S&W had made something like this for sale back in the day.

 

[Sevens]

They did — they called it the Super 9 and they didn’t make nearly enough and they now cost more than they are arguably worth. Yours is fantastic.

 

[clang444]

Thanks - but it's not quite a Super 9. The Super 9 is Single Action, my gun is traditional double action. My gun also has fixed sites and I had the frame milled to add the S&W mag well.