S&W service policy issue (and a bit of a rant)

[sfcjcl]

My Smith & Wesson Customer Service Experience

Though, I sympathize with the gent and his model 642. I purchased a Smith & Wesson Model 48 Classic from the Fort Bliss PX back on Sept 3 2016 for $570.00. The pistol was “New”, but I looked at this pistol on and off for over two years prior and watched it develop a turn line on the cylinder as one clerk or customer dry fired it during that time. I knew it would need a new firing pin when I purchased it and called S&W Customer Service once Labor Day was over with. I clearly explained the situation to S&W and was told with a chuckle that’s its “no problem and we will get it right”. Three weeks later I got the pistol back with the repair invoice that the firing pin, main spring and CYLINDER were replaced. Pistol looks great and shoots even better. I’m a happy S&W Customer.

 

[Tom S.]

A handwritten letter is much more effective. Like 15 years ago, I took my car to a Pep Boys to fix the AC. Three times back and forth. Even supplied them with the factory parts. Yeah, I should have just brought it to the dealer but it was an old car. $400 later and still not fixed. Even worse, it was making a screaming noise.

I wrote a detailed letter to the president of the company and sent it to the headquarters registered mail. Didn’t expect anything to happen. Three days after I mailed it, I got a call from corporate. President read the letter and they were calling to let me know that the spoke to the manager of the branch I had the work done and if I would go in with my credit card they would credit me back for the full amount.

2000 rounds of range ammo is barely breaking it in. The gun should be replaced. New 642’s are like $350 at the dealer. It’s not a small amount of money. Certainly not enough to risk losing a customer or multiple customers for life over.

I agree. While email should be as effective as snail mail, in reality, it just doesn't seem to be the case. In this situation, I'd give the email a couple of days and if there's no response, I'd follow up with a hand written letter. Always be calm and courteous when writing this kind of communication, sticking to facts and pointing out your previous loyalty to the brand. I'd consider doing a CC to the local BBB too.

 

[blues7]

This is extremely disappointing to hear. I look forward to updates regarding any subsequent action.

I wish you the best of luck with this, Ziggy. It's certainly got my attention.

 

[Denver Dick]

Just a couple of points:

1. The pin that locks the cylinder into the frame is the "Center Pin"
2. The other locking point on the J frame is under the front of the barrel, the spring loaded pin is the "Locking Bolt"
3. If the Locking Bolt is not properly fitted it offers no real support for the extractor rod/cylinder. This makes the Center Pin the actual and sole locking point for the cylinder. One thing to check on any S&W revolver is to look at the front of the Yoke while in lockup, hold the frame with one hand and try to move the cylinder laterally with the other. If there is more than just the slightest play, the Lock Bolt may not be doing its job or there is already some elongating of the Center Pin Hole in the frame. If the Locking Bolt is not offering proper support, the Cylinder Pin is taking all the pressure and wear and tear. This will probably lead to accelerated wearing of the Hole in the frame.

I think many folks don't appreciate the true roll of the Locking Bolt and importance of its proper fitment . FWIW

 

[kbm6893]

I agree. While email should be as effective as snail mail, in reality, it just doesn't seem to be the case. In this situation, I'd give the email a couple of days and if there's no response, I'd follow up with a hand written letter. Always be calm and courteous when writing this kind of communication, sticking to facts and pointing out your previous loyalty to the brand. I'd consider doing a CC to the local BBB too.

I specifically remember mentioning I was considering a complaint to the better business bureau.

 

[flagman1776]

I am not one to jump to conclusions lightly. The very nature of this weapon is to protect the owner when the whole world... or at least the real estate he / she occupies at that moment... has gone to sh*t. It is a last ditch gun that we can & do stake our very life on. We expect it to do it's job.
Guns made before 1900 will do so... with just a bit of periodic cleaning & a drop or 2 of oil. I should expect no less from a gun made in the modern era.
There is no reason for a gun company to exist that does not understand this.

 

[Ashlander]

I am not one to jump to conclusions lightly. The very nature of this weapon is to protect the owner when the whole world... or at least the real estate he / she occupies at that moment... has gone to sh*t. It is a last ditch gun that we can & do stake our very life on. We expect it to do it's job.
Guns made before 1900 will do so... with just a bit of periodic cleaning & a drop or 2 of oil. I should expect no less from a gun made in the modern era.
There is no reason for a gun company to exist that does not understand this.

I would agree if we were talking about a modern era gun made out of steel. S&W though designed their alloy frame guns along the same dimensions and contours of their steel counterparts. That was obviously not a design they expected to hold up to regular shooting. I suspect these guns were designed for self-defense use -- not the range. I also suspect most of these guns sit in sock drawers for years (decades?) at a time without a shot fired.

 

[500SNW]

I am not one to jump to conclusions lightly. The very nature of this weapon is to protect the owner when the whole world... or at least the real estate he / she occupies at that moment... has gone to sh*t. It is a last ditch gun that we can & do stake our very life on. We expect it to do it's job.
Guns made before 1900 will do so... with just a bit of periodic cleaning & a drop or 2 of oil. I should expect no less from a gun made in the modern era.
There is no reason for a gun company to exist that does not understand this.

Everything you said above was absolutely correct...but that was NOT my point. My point was that we shouldn't so hastily draw conclusions from just one person's tale. Let's remember that S&W cranks out a lot of firearms of all types, year after year. You say "I am not one to jump to conclusions lightly." Yet you are doing so based solely upon a single online post from someone you don't know? I myself am not ready to label all new Smith's coming off the line as unreliable junk just because one person reported a problem on an online forum. There's too many variables, too many unverifiable questions. Was it truly new and unfired when he bought it all those years ago? Maybe someone bought it from the dealer, took it to the range over the weekend - firing God knows what through it - and returned it on Monday morning because they couldn't take the recoil from a small frame snub revolver. Dealer cleans it up and sells it as "new." Then there's the OP who had it for four years and fired (at least) 2000 rounds through it. Was the revolver broken or defective when the OP recently contacted S&W for service? Probably so. Was it defective when it left the factory all those years ago? That is difficult to answer...and hardly grounds for the rest of us making conclusions.

 

[kbm6893]

Everything you said above was absolutely correct...but that was NOT my point. My point was that we shouldn't so hastily draw conclusions from just one person's tale. Let's remember that S&W cranks out a lot of firearms of all types, year after year. You say "I am not one to jump to conclusions lightly." Yet you are doing so based solely upon a single online post from someone you don't know? I myself am not ready to label all new Smith's coming off the line as unreliable junk just because one person reported a problem on an online forum. There's too many variables, too many unverifiable questions. Was it truly new and unfired when he bought it all those years ago? Maybe someone bought it from the dealer, took it to the range over the weekend - firing God knows what through it - and returned it on Monday morning because they couldn't take the recoil from a small frame snub revolver. Dealer cleans it up and sells it as "new." Then there's the OP who had it for four years and fired (at least) 2000 rounds through it. Was the revolver broken or defective when the OP recently contacted S&W for service? Probably so. Was it defective when it left the factory all those years ago? That is difficult to answer...and hardly grounds for the rest of us making conclusions.

I’m not making conclusions regarding the quality of the firearms. I’m commenting on the lack of support for the weapon that was sold to the OP.

A modern gun with a very low round count and almost no +P ammo fired broke. It was made after 1989 and the OP is the original owner. It qualifies for the lifetime service agreement. It hasn’t been abused or neglected. They should honor the agreement they made when the OP bought the gun.

 

[Ziggy2525]

I’m not making conclusions regarding the quality of the firearms. I’m commenting on the lack of support for the weapon that was sold to the OP.

A modern gun with a very low round count and almost no +P ammo fired broke. It was made after 1989 and the OP is the original owner. It qualifies for the lifetime service agreement. It hasn’t been abused or neglected. They should honor the agreement they made when the OP bought the gun.

Thanks. You’re saying it better than I was. If I dropped it off a building or ran it over with a car, that would be abuse. If I shot it with some sort of super magnum reload, that would be abuse. All I did was shoot the pistol with std pressure ammo.

Even though I only had a couple thousands rounds through it, IMO, based on their service policy commitment, round count and age are irrelevant. They don’t specify a maximum round count. They say the revolver is rated for continuous use of +P ammo. They don’t specify the maximum age of the pistol. They say the lifetime of the original owner.

If there’s a lifetime repair policy, when all you did was shoot it and it breaks, there was some type of defect. It could be in materials, workmanship, design, or applying that service policy to that model pistol. If that model pistol was only designed to be put in a sock drawer and shot rarely, that should either be in the operators manual or the service policy. S&W offered those terms to entice people to purchase their pistols.

We’ll see how it turns out. Thanks everybody for all the support.

 

[Jim1392]

I don't understand why they had that response if true. I have a 22C with close to 60,000 rounds through it. I bought it back in April of 2014. It's been back to S & W for a roll pin walking out and a firing pin last year. It was probably at the 50,000 round mark at that point when I sent it back. They not only replaced the firing pin but it was on their dime for shipping both ways. So I'm surprised at the response.

 

[Ziggy2525]

I don't understand why they had that response if true. I have a 22C with close to 60,000 rounds through it. I bought it back in April of 2014. It's been back to S & W for a roll pin walking out and a firing pin last year. It was probably at the 50,000 round mark at that point when I sent it back. They not only replaced the firing pin but it was on their dime for shipping both ways. So I'm surprised at the response.

I believe they took that position because the part that broke is either non-repairable or not cost effective to repair, so it’s a complete pistol replacement.

 

[500SNW]

If I dropped it off a building or ran it over with a car, that would be abuse. If I shot it with some sort of super magnum reload, that would be abuse. All I did was shoot the pistol with std pressure ammo.

Ziggy2525 All I am saying is, we have to also consider S&W's position. Perhaps everything you stated is exactly as things happened. Probably is. But from S&W's perspective, it is all unverifiable hearsay. They've got no way to ensure that you didn't abuse it, or use excessively high-pressure handloads...and so on. That's where the length of time you owned the revolver becomes critical. I still say that if you only owned it 18 months, you be in a Hell of a lot better position to deal with them. After 4 years or more, SW's obligations (and likelihood of free repair and/or replacement) diminishes greatly. Like I said earlier, I learned this lesson recently and it is still fresh in my mind. I'm the type of guy who buys a new gun and let's it sit for months, even years without fully testing and breaking it in with at least a few hundred rounds. I got lucky when my firing pin cracked up and they sent me a free replacement part no questions asked. I think it is because I've only had the gun 2 years. Had I waited another two years, I doubt they'd have done anything free of charge.

 

[RGVshooter]

Actually technically S&W offers a Limited warranty to the original owner for 1 year after purchase. After that then S&W's lifetime service policy begins. Eligibility for this Lifetime Service Policy requires returning the Product Registration Card within 30 days of purchase. The Lifetime Service Policy covers functional defects, it doesn't include the firearm’s finish, grips, magazines or sights. All liability is excluded in the event that the instructions in the Smith & Wesson manual are not observed.

 

[kbm6893]

Ziggy2525 All I am saying is, we have to also consider S&W's position. Perhaps everything you stated is exactly as things happened. Probably is. But from S&W's perspective, it is all unverifiable hearsay. They've got no way to ensure that you didn't abuse it, or use excessively high-pressure handloads...and so on. That's where the length of time you owned the revolver becomes critical. I still say that if you only owned it 18 months, you be in a Hell of a lot better position to deal with them. After 4 years or more, SW's obligations (and likelihood of free repair and/or replacement) diminishes greatly. Like I said earlier, I learned this lesson recently and it is still fresh in my mind. I'm the type of guy who buys a new gun and let's it sit for months, even years without fully testing and breaking it in with at least a few hundred rounds. I got lucky when my firing pin cracked up and they sent me a free replacement part no questions asked. I think it is because I've only had the gun 2 years. Had I waited another two years, I doubt they'd have done anything free of charge.

So the burden to prove he DIDN’T abuse it is on him? That’s nonsense. Their response is “we don’t know if you abused it, and there’s no evidence of it being abused, but since you can’t prove you didn’t abuse it, you’re out of luck”. That’s ****.

And the four years of ownership is irrelevant. It’s a lifetime service agreement. Not a 3 year service agreement and sorry, but you just missed the cut-off. They can show no evidence of neglect, and just say “normal wear and tear, so we’re not liable”. All of us here know 2000 rounds of range ammo and a few +P is very light use.

I gotta think going over the drone on the phone is gonna get better results. If it doesn’t, I’d make it my mission to badmouth the company and steer people away from the products offered. I’d definitely make a complaint with the better business bureau

And I’ve sent in quite a few used revolvers and pistols. Like 30 years old. Some made before 1989, even. I wasn’t even the original owner. They never asked and I never paid a dime. Something sure has changed at S&W if this is how they do things now.

 

[RGVshooter]

Just out of curiosity. But how did the hammer pin break?

I'm not saying this is the case, but I can see the pin breaking when attempting to swap out the rebound spring.

 

[Ziggy2525]

Just out of curiosity. But how did the hammer pin break?

I'm not saying this is the case, but I can see the pin breaking when attempting to swap out the rebound spring.

Not sure how it broke other than shooting the pistol. I had it at the range and the action started acting odd. I thought it had gotten gummed up. I popped the side plate to clean it and the pin was broken.

What I think in odd is it's not the hammer pin they were complaining about. It was the yoke bolt/bolt hole elongation thing they found when they inspected the pistol that they said pushed it over the edge and made the pistol irreparable.

 

[Ziggy2525]

...
I gotta think going over the drone on the phone is gonna get better results. If it doesn’t, I’d make it my mission to badmouth the company and steer people away from the products offered. I’d definitely make a complaint with the better business bureau
...

I'll try to escalate as far a possible, but if they won't replace it, I don't plan on bad mouthing S&W. It's probably just me, but I've never seen that get people very far.

If they won't make it right (in my mind anyway), I'll replace it with an LCR instead of another Airweight. If the LCR works out and people ask why I chose the LCR, I'll tell them. I see that as more the practical side of "fool me once..."

 

[RSKELLY]

I hope you just got a poorly trained CSR but this is shameful.
I have 2 guns into S/w for service a 9 mm shield and a bodyguard 38, shield cycled and had the guide rod come out 1.25 " , SW wanted to know if I had this problem before....Body guard stopped functioning totally only factory ammo Remington used . CSR offered to Send Parts! Really?
Ruger looking better every day , Sig 239 broke after 5000+ rounds got it back from sig in 10 day with a letter of apology S &W should wise up

 

[500SNW]

Actually technically S&W offers a Limited warranty to the original owner for 1 year after purchase. After that then S&W's lifetime service policy begins. Eligibility for this Lifetime Service Policy requires returning the Product Registration Card within 30 days of purchase.

Hmmm. I never fill out those cards, and they helped me with my 627....which is beyond the Limited Warranty period as it is at least 1-1/2 to 2 years old.