S&W Special US Service CTG'S History

Mike

Clearly, the collectors have estabilished a nomenclature that is not
consistent with the catalogs. Its been beneficial insofar as being
able to classify engineering changes. On the other hand, it did so
at the cost of losing the catalog-classification of certain models;
specifically the round-butt K-frames.

Some collectors apparently do not care about this, but, of course,
I am not in that group; I do care. The square butt was introduced into
the K-frame line in late 1904 , as a separate model ; the 1905. Prior
to this, the 1899's and early 1902's were round-butt only.

Had it been the case that round-butt frames were never really all that
popular, and they more/less disappeared within a few decades after
the introduction of the 1899, then I could understand classifiying
all K-frames as models of 1905.

But, that isn't the case, at all. As Lee incompletely pointed out, the
1902 & 1905 specific designation disappear sometime after 1913. The
specification of separate models for round and square butt does not,
if ever, go away, at least until sometime after 1970.

What does go away, about 10 years or so ago, is the square butt frame.
It is the round butt that survives, to this very day. This is a key part of
my claim that the classifcation of early ( 1910 - 1940 ) K-frames should
include some reference to its factory-catalog model definition.

Needless to say, this causes great problems vis-a-vis engineering
changes. Round-butt models are inherently two changes ahead of
square butt models. And therein lies the dilemma !

Regards, Mike
 
This is why this forum is such a great place. Folks with a lot of knowledge on a given subject, can have a lively disussion on that subject and no one goes postal. Those of us that don't know squat, learn a few things..Thanks
 
old smithy military .38 special

ser# 882xx . Double action revolver in .38 special cal. Has "US Service CTG'S" on the barrel. Any information would be great. Date of manufacture? approx. value in good condition.

thanks
 
I had to get out my Barnes book to check the 2 cartridges. Both calibers used a .357" bullet and the diameters of both cases are almost identical. Cartridge lengths and rim diameters differ. Case length of the 38 Special is 1.16" and 38 LC is 1.03". Rim diameter of 38 Special is .440" and 38 LC is .433".

The difference does not seem to be great enouogh to cause any great difference in accuracy, but the shorter 38 LC could lose some accuracy when shot in longer chamber of the 38 Special.

Is there anyone out there that have trouble chambering the 38 Special in the 38 LC chamber?
 
I the same gun serial #71658, does this fall with in the
argument? 5 screw blued .38 s&w spl & u.s. service ctg.
 
38 S&W Special US Service CTG's

I have my grandfathers 38 S&W Special US Service CTG's, serial number of 68165. Mechanically great finish has worn considerably, it must have been nickel? It has 5 screws, 4 on side and 1 in front trigger guard.

Any idea on age or value? I would never sell but just curious.

If I decide to shoot this, should I use 38 special, 38 LC?

thanks in advance for all your help.


David
 
I have one of these I am curious about as well.

It would be better if you started your own thread, as this one is several years old.

You have a .38 Military & police target model, probably from before 1910. The star on the butt indicates that it went back to S&W for some sort of work. It could be that this revolver was one with fixed sights and adjustable sights were added. If you remove the grips, there should be a rework date stamped on the frame. Example: 8.54 would be August 1954.
 
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Senior Diablo ,

Your interesting old target M&P appears to be refinished.

How does it shoot?
 
A quick look at the overall appearance reveals a non-original look to the finish. Lack of wear , odd uniformity of bluing , and so on. Then , look closely at the side plate seam. An original seam from that era should be tight - amazingly tight given the technology available at that time. The machinists working at Smith & Wesson , as well as other gun manufacturers 100+ years ago , were very highly skilled. The seam on your revolver displays an open appearance which would suggest that the edges were rounded in the course of buffing and polishing , part of the preparation process for re-bluing.

Referring to the images you posted - the portion of the side plate which holds the forward-most screw is an example of what I am describing.
 
This revolver may have been refinished twice, once at the factory and once somewhere else. The star after the serial number indicates some sort of work done on a return to the factory that could have been a refinish. A refinish outside the factory is indicated by the poor fit of the sideplate to the frame. On a new gun or a factory refinish, the seam between the sideplate and the frame is practically invisible because the gun was polished with the sideplate in place. Many refinishers polished the sideplate with it off the gun, and with too soft a polishing wheel which leads to rounded edges and dished screw holes on the sideplate.
 
Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! Your .38 M&P was likely made before 1905. It has the Model 1902 trigger return spring and is probably a Model 1902 square butt. Most of them were round butt. The grips are period correct. There may be remnants of the serial number penciled inside the right grip panel. However, from the looks of them, they have been refinished and the SN may have been removed. Other indicators of a refinish are dished screw holes and the dishing around the serial number on the butt as well as the polished down trigger return stud on the left side. However, it looks to be in good shape for its age and I'll bet the action is like butter.
 
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The closest SN I have listed to yours is 61486 which shipped in 9/1905. I also list at least a half-dozen others in the same SN neighborhood, all of which shipped in 1905. But I also show several with lower SNs which shipped in 1906. That is not unusual as S&W did not ship in SN order. It would be the "Model of 1905" as it has a square butt. As others have stated it has been refinished and shows the usual evidence of a non-factory re-blue. Nonetheless, any Target Model K-frame is unusual and desirable as they constituted only a small percentage of S&W's production.
 
DWalt, according to the SCSW, 4th, it is a Model 1902, 1st Change. The Model 1905 didn't start until SN 62450. Square butt 1902s began at ~SN 58000.


The first square butt K frames show up in the middle of this model serial number range at about 58,000.

(Page 162).
 
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