S&W US Army Model 1917 British Proofed

[Jack Flash]

From the letter:
"We have no information as to where your revolver was shipped from the Armory."

I'll bet it was "Somewhere in France."

 

[dickydalton]

Does it have the US ARMY MODEL OF 1917 stamp on the butt.

No, just the SN. And I just measured the barrel and it's 6 1/2" and stamped matching SN. This is unusual.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Dicky, I believe you have a .455 Hand Ejector, 2nd Model that was converted to .45 AR. Is the .45 AR stamped above a crossed out .455 similar to below:

 

[jeeps]

Mine is stamped U.S.Army Model 1917. In 1941 the U.S.A. sold 21k of SW model 1917's along with Lewis guns and Stokes mortars trough the U.S. Steel company as scrap metal to get around the Neutrality Law. After Pearl Harbor there was Lend Lease. R.A.F. pilots and home guard used them as well as others.

 

[AlanDavid]

The 20,000 pistols along with all the other munitions totaling $37,619,556 were declared surplus. These were then to be exchanged - not sold - for $37,619,556 worth of other equipment, which the U.S. military wanted. This was mostly artillery, it is this equipment that the British paid for while the surplus munitions was shipped to the UK. The U.S. steel Corp acted as a broker without making a commission.This occurred during July/September 1940. Although the original schedule or list showed $37.6 million it was added to 3 or 4 times and finally became about $46 million, in value. As to the quantities shown on the list such as 20,000 .45 DA revolvers 25,000 BAR's and so on, in nearly all cases the actual quantity delivered is as variants. In the case of the S&W .45 DA's these came in at 20,100. They were split 50/50 with the Middle East Command and the Air Ministry. None went to the Home Guard.
Air Ministry marked examples with a crown over the letters AM, are extremely scares . I have only documented 2 so far - presumably not all of the 10,000 were marked?

Regards

AlanD

 

[dickydalton]

Dicky, I believe you have a .455 Hand Ejector, 2nd Model that was converted to .45 AR. Is the .45 AR stamped above a crossed out .455 similar to below:

No, it is the original stamp on the barrel.

 

[StrawHat]

dickydalton,

Some images would be nice so we can try and piece the story together.

Kevin

 

[Wiregrassguy]

No, it is the original stamp on the barrel.

Dickey, that can't be because S&W didn't make a model 1917 chambered for AR. As Kevin said, we need to see some pictures so we can figure out how this stamp got to be looking like an original.

 

[jeeps]

The 1940 shipment was slipped into England as scrap metal along with Lewis guns and Stokes mortars. No broad arrow marks ,just pressure proofs. A back door shipment to avoid breaking the Neutrality and peace groups in the U.S.A.

 

[dickydalton]

Picture of the barrel. Clearly the original stamp.

19174.jpg | The High Road

 

[dickydalton]

Dickey, that can't be because S&W didn't make a model 1917 chambered for AR. As Kevin said, we need to see some pictures so we can figure out how this stamp got to be looking like an original.

This is from page 192 of the S&WSC #4, they did make 45 A.R.
swc.jpg | The High Road

 

[dickydalton]

1917

Mine is Not stamped US Army anywhere and has a 6 1/2" barrel. The patent dates on top of the barrel are wrong for a 1917.
19177.jpg | The High Road

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Ok. Poor choice of words on my part. .45 AR came along after WWI and the .45 ACP cartridge. Although the 1917 will chamber and shoot it, the M1917 was designed for .45 ACP and moon clips because the US Service Cartridge was .45 ACP. The barrel caliber stamp read ".45 DA". Peters produced the .45 AR beginning in 1920 to take advantage of the 1917's that were entering the surplus market for those owners who didn't want to fool with moon clips.


The stamp in your picture was not done by S&W. It is in the wrong location and is clearly done by hand. Your gun may be a .455 British Service Revolver, not a 1917. Has the face of the cylinder been milled (shaved)?

 

[StrawHat]

Now, it gets interesting. The 6 1/2" barrel is definitely not a Model 1917. From the limited view offered by the image I will say it started as the 455 Second Model Hand Ejector. After the war many, if not most, were converted to chamber either the 45 long Colt or the 45 ACP. The ACP was a very poor choice as it operates way above proof pressures of the 455. Whoever converted your revolver was smart and stamped it 45 A. R. which operates at lower pressure more compatible with the 455.

Kevin

A thread on the various 455 Hand Ejectors,

.455 British Svc Revolver Research Thread

 

[dickydalton]

I do believe it was a pre WWI 455 but never stamped as such. 45 ACP on clips won't fit. It's a 4 digit S/N.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

There were no pre World War I 455 hand ejectors. The 455 was made for Britain in the first model triple lock and the second model just for World War I. Of course that was before we entered the war. Would you post a picture of the rear face of your cylinder?

 

[dickydalton]

It has been ground. The link Kevin posted places it at pre 1918 and looking at the Smith Catalog I'd say it's a 2nd model made in 1915.

 

[DARE]

I had a .455 2nd model with 6 1/2" barrel that was marked ".45 S&W" on the barrel. Don't remember if it was also marked .455.
My understanding is that .45 S&W is a shorter version of .45 Colt.

 

[StrawHat]

It has been ground. The link Kevin posted places it at pre 1918 and looking at the Smith Catalog I'd say it's a 2nd model made in 1915.

Please provide the information to that thread so Jim can add it to his data base.

Kevin

 

[StrawHat]

I had a .455 2nd model with 6 1/2" barrel that was marked ".45 S&W" on the barrel. Don't remember if it was also marked .455.
My understanding is that .45 S&W is a shorter version of .45 Colt.

Yes, the 45 S&W was shorter than the 45 long Colt and used in the top break S&W revolvers supplied to the Army. It fit both and eventually was the only cartridge supplied by the Army. It can be argued that it is the cartridge that gave the SAA its reputation as a man stopper.

And, please, follow the link in post 54 so your revolver can be added to the database.

Kevin