Sad day for an old gun.

[ctangus]

Wow. This looks like the reason why I don't reload or shoot reloads in my guns anymore. Back in the day when we all reloaded (me, my friends, the guy who owned the LGS) strange things were most always going on when we went out shooting.

I have reloaded for everything I own (sans RF) for nearly 60 yrs. now, and have NEVER had an "ACCIDENT". I reload with the same discipline that I adhere to for GUN SAFETY. And no, I do not shoot other people's reloads. I reload for: economy, improved and consistent performance, and for the pride of "rollin' my own". Just the old cowboy showing thru I suspicion. RELOAD is not a bad thing in and of itself.
Dennis

 

[two-bit cowboy]

Pardon my Fren(h. Dennis

No, as a matter of fact, I won't, Dennis. These last two posts are NOT acceptable.

Clean it up, or pack it up, Soldier.

My two bits!

Bob

 

[BC38]

No, as a matter of fact, I won't, Dennis. These last two posts are NOT acceptable.

Clean it up, or pack it up, Soldier.

My two bits!

Bob

I'd take that bit of advice. If you wait for the big gorilla to have a chat with you about it, you may regret it...

 

[steelslaver]

Use a vise on the barrel with a couple of pieces of hardwood that have a groove cut into them. You can drill a hardwood block and then saw it in half or take 2 3/4" pieces and clamp them together and then drill. If you use a set of blocks carved to fit the frame and yoke in a vice to hold the frame, just use the barrel blocks in another small loose vise or clamp the blocks on with C clamps and use those for a grip to turn barrel.

Installing replacement barrel. First clean it and frame threads up. lightly oil and try fit the barrel it should be hand tight about 90 degrees or little bit more or less when hand tight. If not then your problem is the adjust the shoulder so that this happens. This takes a lathe or a special tool that is available. If the barrel has much less than 90 degrees to go and doesn't go all the way to 12 O'clock you could cheat a bit by taking a small punch and make a series of small punch marks evenly placed around the flat of the barrel shoulder. This will displace a bit of metal and cause the barrel to torque. You would have to be careful not to mess up the OD of the barrel shoulder. When you install the barrel for final fit up., threads should be clean and dry, (no oil). Keep torquing and checking until sights are lined up right at 12 O'clock. Then there is the barrel to cylinder gap. Before final torque up, with the barrel at 90 degrees before correct install yoke and cylinder. Measure gap with feeler gauges. Should be around .013 at that point. Final 90 will take away .007 (.0277 per complete revolution). and leave you with .006. Less can be dealt with. More than .015 will leave to much gap and means shoulder has to be taken down enough to make another turn.

If barrel torques up at 12 0'clock and gap is .004.-.008 all is good. If gap is less than .004 you have a couple options. A tool is available from Brownells that you insert through the barrel and then install a flat cutter and slowly trim barrel extension to correct gap.Then another cutter is installed to redo forcing cone and then a brass lap is installed to finish forcing cone. I have one and it works great. Its a bit over $130 I think for 0ne set of tools. Different face cutters are needed for different frames. But, lets say you come out at .002. IF you are good with a file and careful you could take care of it. Grind of the teeth on one side of the fine flat file to "safe" that side. Inset a thin piece of brass or stainless above the barrel and against the frame to protect frame from scratches. With the barrel sticking down in a padded vise. Hold the file dead flat against the barrel extension and keep file flat as you stroke it with even pressure. Don't wobble the file at all or you will not cut even. Check the gap often. If a .004 gauge starts from one side and not the other your not filing even. Some Prussian blue on the feeler gauge would tell you if tight top to bottom. removing that small amount would have very little effect on forcing cone. I did it onse on an old K frame 38 I stuck a new cylinder in and it came out great and shoots fine. Some purest will howl at this, but very precise work is done with files all the time. Stuff is also messed up by idiots with files all the time. Don't be an idiot. I will even state that I think a good guy with a file and some prussian blue could set a barrel back a turn. It just would take a lot of time, try fits and patience. I have found several factory guns with slightly uneven gaps. It is not unusual for say a .006 gauge to go part way from one side and not the other and a .005 to go all the way. Perfect is preferred of course, but very few actually are. Some guns have a slightly out of square cylinder face to. But, most of them still shoot well. In the old days the guys in the hand fitting department had lots of files and stones and knew how to use them.

I see a gun like this as a perfect learning opportunity. If your careful and take your time you can end up with a perfectly serviceable gun. It was never meant to be a target piece. It is far from collectable. If you totally mess up you still have a pile of good parts and are not out a lot.

Good luck

 

[JSR III]

Does anyone know if S&W would assemble the barrel and frame if shipped to them? I know that they don't work on older guns but I thought that it was due to lack of spare old parts. Since the soft fitting department has gone the way of the dodo bird and now everything is done using CNC machines, they may not have folks with the expertise.

Might be worth a phone call. 800-331-0852

 

[Big Cholla]

steelslaver has posted above the most important contribution to this whole thread. The cheapest way to alter most metal parts is with a file. Ah, but therein lies the rub, acquiring that skill is a task that takes time, concentration, effort, determination and really good files.....No, I mean really good files. A friend of mine went to a gunsmithing school in the early '60s. The first day in the school's shop, all in the class were given a small piece of 1" thick mild steel plate with a 7/8" dia. hole drilled thru the center. Along with that plate they were give a rough saw cut piece of the same steel that was about 1.125"x1.125. They were told that they had all semester to accomplish this task and that they must do it or would have to repeat the semester: File a 1" square opening thru the flat plate that was within + or - 0.005" square; Then file the small piece to pass thru that opening all six ways with no clearance gap being more than 0.001" by feeler gauge. He said that it took him nearly all semester to accomplish his filing job and that some of the others just dropped out of the school.

Now, that is an extreme way to learn to file, but that skill is absolutely invaluable throughout a gunsmith's career. I didn't have to do that particular exercise, but I became very critical of my filing skills after hearing my friend's story and seeing his "Filing Exercise Plate".

An aside: Top quality files make difficult and delicate jobs finish better with less effort. The best files available now are no longer USA made, but IMHO are from the Norse/Denmark area of Europe. They are even better than most German made files. Alas, our old standbys made by Nicholson are now made in China and while they look just like the USA made, the quality is just not equal.

Also; you "eager to learn these skills" people, pay close attention to what steelslaver is posting. He is self taught to a higher degree of skill than most and has the ability to post what he has found to 'work' best.

Also No. 2; Any file job will work best if you have and use Dykem on the surface to be filed and white chalk on the file after a good and frequent cleaning of the file with a wire file brush. Pay particular attention to the use of "Safed" files, protective brass barriers, etc. I have found very thin brass shim stock is particularly useful in preventing collateral damage while filing in tight conditions. I use exactly the same filing method to finish off the barrel/cylinder gap as described by steelslaver. I never saw the need to purchase the mechanical cutting tool he describes to cut that surface. I do have and use the forcing cone cutting tool set from Brownell's as there is just no other way to cut the forcing cone properly and in alignment with the bore of the barrel when the barrel is installed in the frame. ......

 

[Hondo44]

I agree with both steelslayer and Big Cholla; there's wisdom and experience in they're words.

1. If you didn't know it already, files only go one direction, not back and forth like a hand saw.

2. As Big Cholla posted, cleaning the chips from the file is important to prevent gauling your nicely filed surface.

A speedy way to file and to clean your file continuously is to glue or clamp a file card upside down on your work surface: make a cutting stroke with the file, as you lift the file to return it for the next cutting stroke, swipe the cleaning card on the way.

3. A milling machine is a very handy tool with many uses for gun repairs or customizing. Before I had a mill, I wished I had one. But frankly, now that I do, the set up is laborious and only time efficient for larger cuts.

Changing tooling, positioning and clamping (especially odd shaped work) is seldom warranted for small cuts. There's many small cuts that can be done much, much faster with a few skillful file strokes. And I find myself using a file as I used to, for things I thought I would do on the mill.

But it's personal preference.

 

[Highridinyota]

Update:: new barrel arrived as promised free of charge but has had the forcing cone hacked off so it's a no go. The barrel swap was easy with just a vice and a hammer handle . This funky learns something everyday . I'm still in search of a barrel . Does any other barrels fit my revolver such as modrl ten barrels or victory barrels . Knowing this might make my life easier

 

[Hondo44]

It's a K frame so any K frame barrel will have the right size thread pitch and diameter, from pre war right up to today.

 

[Highridinyota]

It's a K frame so any K frame barrel will have the right size thread pitch and diameter, from pre war right up to today.

Thanks for the info I've found numerous k frame barrels so now I know what my options are

 

[Big Cholla]

One More Time

It's a K frame so any K frame barrel will have the right size thread pitch and diameter, from pre war right up to today.

That hammer handle will tweek your frame and make it a S&W Pistolsmith's job to put it back to being usable. As I said before; the pre 'K' frames are much more malleable than the newer frames. The use of the hammer handle thru the cylinder opening to remove or replace barrels WILL cause bending of the pre 'K' frame in the cylinder opening area....either taking off a barrel or torquing one back into place. Usually it is in taking off the old barrel. Right now, you don't know if you bent that frame or not without extensive armorer's checks. Sorry to read that you did it that way.

 

[Muley Gil]

"I'm tired of paying people to do shabby workmanship when I can do it myself."

Me too. I'm perfectly capable of doing my own shoddy work.

 

[Bosquebass]

That hammer handle will tweek your frame and make it a S&W Pistolsmith's job to put it back to being usable. As I said before; the pre 'K' frames are much more malleable than the newer frames. The use of the hammer handle thru the cylinder opening to remove or replace barrels WILL cause bending of the pre 'K' frame in the cylinder opening area....either taking off a barrel or torquing one back into place. Usually it is in taking off the old barrel. Right now, you don't know if you bent that frame or not without extensive armorer's checks. Sorry to read that you did it that way.

How can you tell if the frame was twisted or bent? Or in other words, where is the frame prone to bend when you use the hammer handle?

 

[bgrafsr]

I was thinkin' that. Get it cut down and make it a snubby.

Yeah, but will his snubby smoke cigars?

 

[Big Cholla]

Armorer's Checks with Gauges

How can you tell if the frame was twisted or bent? Or in other words, where is the frame prone to bend when you use the hammer handle?

The usual result is that the corner of the rectangle made by the cylinder opening in the frame where the barrel enters will be pulled out of alignment with the intended axis of the bore. Thus, the top strap and the front of the frame are bent. Which way depends on if it was when the barrel was being removed or when the barrel was being torqued into place. With the proper Armorer's gauges the alignment can be checked and if out it can be beat back into place using a lead babbit bar with a great deal of experience. Any such bending will cause one dimension or another to 'grow' somewhat causing the requirement that the barrel/cylinder gap be checked and reset if required. All this unnecessary beating about the frame might also cause the axis of the bore to point up or point down from the original. That too has to (or should be) addressed.

As I have stated before, the metallurgy of the pre "K" frames are some what 'softer' and therefore more malleable than later versions of the "K" frame. This makes the "barrel in a vice and a hammer handle thru the cylinder opening" method of torquing barrels in or out is almost sure to cause some movement in the alignment of the frame resulting in misalignment of the bore axis. Also, cylinder rotation can be adversely affected. And, sometimes the misalignment is so much the cylinder won't open or close without undue pressure.

Sometimes an existing barrel has been removed and reinstalled earlier in the handgun's life and was installed with less than usual torque. Only then can the cry of "Bubba, the amateur pistolsmith" that "I did it and it worked for me." can be a true statement. And that will be on very few occasions.

The superb manual on the pistol smithing of the S&W Revolver by Jerry Kuenhausen gives all the armorer's checks required and describes the tools/gauges required. Brownell's has most of them in stock at any given time. ............

Even with modern day frames the only safe and proper way to apply torque to that barrel/frame joint is to use a properly sized 'frame wrench'. They are specific to the different sizes of frames. They are also not cheap. Thus we come to the bane of all Pistolsmiths and Gunsmiths; the vast array of proper tools needed quickly add up to a sizable investment. And when the Pistol Smith's career is ended those expensive tools seem to be worth pennies on the dollar. ...

 

[Bosquebass]

The usual result is that the corner of the rectangle made by the cylinder opening in the frame where the barrel enters will be pulled out of alignment with the intended axis of the bore. Thus, the top strap and the front of the frame are bent. Which way depends on if it was when the barrel was being removed or when the barrel was being torqued into place. With the proper Armorer's gauges the alignment can be checked and if out it can be beat back into place using a lead babbit bar with a great deal of experience. Any such bending will cause one dimension or another to 'grow' somewhat causing the requirement that the barrel/cylinder gap be checked and reset if required. All this unnecessary beating about the frame might also cause the axis of the bore to point up or point down from the original. That too has to (or should be) addressed.

As I have stated before, the metallurgy of the pre "K" frames are some what 'softer' and therefore more malleable than later versions of the "K" frame. This makes the "barrel in a vice and a hammer handle thru the cylinder opening" method of torquing barrels in or out is almost sure to cause some movement in the alignment of the frame resulting in misalignment of the bore axis. Also, cylinder rotation can be adversely affected. And, sometimes the misalignment is so much the cylinder won't open or close without undue pressure.

Sometimes an existing barrel has been removed and reinstalled earlier in the handgun's life and was installed with less than usual torque. Only then can the cry of "Bubba, the amateur pistolsmith" that "I did it and it worked for me." can be a true statement. And that will be on very few occasions.

The superb manual on the pistol smithing of the S&W Revolver by Jerry Kuenhausen gives all the armorer's checks required and describes the tools/gauges required. Brownell's has most of them in stock at any given time. ............

Even with modern day frames the only safe and proper way to apply torque to that barrel/frame joint is to use a properly sized 'frame wrench'. They are specific to the different sizes of frames. They are also not cheap. Thus we come to the bane of all Pistolsmiths and Gunsmiths; the vast array of proper tools needed quickly add up to a sizable investment. And when the Pistol Smith's career is ended those expensive tools seem to be worth pennies on the dollar. ...

Thanks for taking the time to give such a detailed answer.
Stuff like this is why I hang out here.
I passed on a M19 last week because it looked like the barrel had been replaced at some point and it's good to know what could happen if the job was done wrong.

 

[steelslaver]

At this point you might just as well find a replacement barrel and install it in the same method you removed the original. Hopefully it will torque the frame back close to its original position. First thing to look at is does the yoke close up tight against the frame, look at the top where the flat on top the yoke meets the flat of frame under barrel. Any gaps? Then you need to get or make a range rod. This will just slide down the barrel and the squared off end of rod should not hit the front of the cylinder as it passes through into each chamber. Also having one end or the rod come to a point and running it through barrel with the cylinder out, the point should touch the center of firing pin hole in recoil shield. If it is tweaked it can be realigned. It is metal and will move. I learned a bunch on an old 32 I frame I picked up with an obvious tweak as yoke to frame sucked. You can look at this as a disaster or an learning opportunity.

Good luck

 

[austintexas]

It sees like people think the barrel is torqued on like head bolts on a car engine, The few I changed were not that tight. I used a slight bump and they turned off. PS, I was a poor Airman First Class and couldn't afford to pay someone a third of a months pay to fix my revolvers.
SWCA 892

 

[steelslaver]

Some are real tight and some are not. I have had them anywhere from wow to easy, pinned and unpinned. I have never found a specific torque they are supposed to be. I should cut the handle off my frame wrench and set it up with to use an old style torque wrench just for my own curiosity. I didn't spend a bunch of money on my frame wrench. Just a little time with a welder and my inserts are made from easy to shape small nylon blocks. Oak would have worked too.

Why take a chance on the hammer handle through the frame method when it is know to have caused issues? Everyone can afford a couple small pieces of oak and with little time and effort, carve and file them to fit the frame at the barrel yoke area and the use them to clamp it in a vise. Then a couple pieces around the barrel at ejector lug and a C clamp or another small vise and you can do it without worries. I do understand having no money, been there done lots of that. Part of the reason I started working on my own guns to get what I wanted. But, when I was broke I couldn't afford to make mistakes that would ruin them either. I could afford to make an extra effort to make it work right rather than just chance it.

I still haven't got a lot of extra money, unless I want to sell my life for a while going out of town and staying in some motel and working my fanny off some place I don't really want to be. I do have a nice shop, equipment and tools now. But, trust me I earned it every bit of it over 40 some years of work.

 

[Highridinyota]

Barrel wasn't on tight enough to do any damage with that hammer handle. Thanks for the info though.