That is correct!! It seems that some posters are thinking that just sawing off a barrel is illegal. If the overall length is over 26 inches AND the rifle barrel is 16 in. or the shotgun barrel is 18 in. it is not illegal. Larry
Sawed Off Shotguns
- Thread starter The Last Standing Knight
- Start date
That is correct!! It seems that some posters are thinking that just sawing off a barrel is illegal. If the overall length is over 26 inches AND the rifle barrel is 16 in. or the shotgun barrel is 18 in. it is not illegal. Larry
Tell that to Randy Weaver.
A "dangerously modified" shotgun?
Would that be like cutting the barrel with an angle grinder, barefoot on wet concrete floor, in yer skivvies, with no eye-pro?
Since this is a Federal law....
Since this is a Federal law I'm sure that you are right. However, I'm perusing our state laws to find whatever language that I read in the past to base that on. Unless I do, I'll go with your answer.
UPDATE: Ok, I found the laws and copied them verbatim. You are right, simply possessing a sawed off shotgun is breaking the law.
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SECTION 16-23-220. Unlawful transportation of machine gun, military firearm, or sawed off shotgun or rifle within State.
It is unlawful for a person to transport from one place to another in this State or for any railroad company, express company, or other common carrier or any officer, agent, or employee of any of them or other person acting in their behalf knowingly to ship or to transport from one place to another in this State a machine gun or firearm commonly known as a machine gun, military firearm, sawed off shotgun, or sawed off rifle, except as provided in Sections 16 23 250 and 23 31 330.
A person who violates the provisions of this section, upon conviction, must be punished pursuant to Section 16-23-260.
SECTION 16-23-230. Unlawful storing, keeping, or possessing of machine gun, military firearm, or sawed off shotgun or rifle.
It is unlawful for a person to store, keep, possess, or have in possession or permit another to store, keep, possess, or have in possession a machine gun or firearm commonly known as a machine gun, military firearm, sawed off shotgun, or sawed off rifle, except as provided in Sections 16 23 250 and 23 31 330.
A person who violates the provisions of this section, upon conviction, must be punished pursuant to Section 16-23-260.
SECTION 16-23-240. Unlawful sale, rental, or giving away of machine gun, military firearm, or sawed off shotgun or rifle; exceptions.
It is unlawful for a person to sell, rent, give away, or participate in any manner, directly or indirectly, in the sale, renting, giving away, or otherwise disposing of a machine gun, or firearm commonly known as a machine gun, military firearm, sawed off shotgun, or sawed off rifle, except as provided in Sections 16 23 250 and 23 31 330.
A person who violates the provisions of this section, upon conviction, must be punished pursuant to Section 16-23-260.
SECTION 16-23-250. Exceptions to application of article.
The provisions of this article do not apply to the Army, Navy, or Air Force of the United States, the National Guard, and organizations authorized by law to purchase or receive machine guns, military firearms, or sawed off shotguns or sawed off rifles, from the United States or from this State and the members of these organizations. Any peace officer of the State or of a county or other political subdivision, state constable, member of the highway patrol, railway policeman or warden, superintendent, head keeper or deputy of a state prison, correction facility, workhouse, county jail, city jail, or other institution for the detention of persons convicted or accused of crime or held as witnesses in criminal cases or persons on duty in the postal service of the United States or a common carrier while transporting direct to a police department, military, or naval organization or person authorized by law to possess or use a machine gun, or sawed off shotgun, or sawed off rifle, may possess machine guns, or sawed off shotguns, or sawed off rifles, when required in the performance of their duties. The provisions of this section must not be construed to apply to machine guns, or sawed off shotguns, or sawed off rifles kept for display as relics and which are rendered harmless and not usable.
The provisions of this article do not apply to any manufacturer of machine guns or military firearms licensed pursuant to the provisions of 18 U. S. C. Section 921 et seq., any person authorized to possess these weapons by the United States Department of the Treasury, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, or any other federal agency empowered to grant this authorization, any common or contract carrier transporting or shipping any machine gun or military firearm to or from the manufacturer if the transportation or shipment is not prohibited by federal law, or persons licensed pursuant to Section 23-31-370.
Since this is a Federal law I'm sure that you are right. However, I'm perusing our state laws to find whatever language that I read in the past to base that on. Unless I do, I'll go with your answer.
UPDATE: Ok, I found the laws and copied them verbatim. You are right, simply possessing a sawed off shotgun is breaking the law.
-----
SECTION 16-23-220. Unlawful transportation of machine gun, military firearm, or sawed off shotgun or rifle within State.
It is unlawful for a person to transport from one place to another in this State or for any railroad company, express company, or other common carrier or any officer, agent, or employee of any of them or other person acting in their behalf knowingly to ship or to transport from one place to another in this State a machine gun or firearm commonly known as a machine gun, military firearm, sawed off shotgun, or sawed off rifle, except as provided in Sections 16 23 250 and 23 31 330.
A person who violates the provisions of this section, upon conviction, must be punished pursuant to Section 16-23-260.
SECTION 16-23-230. Unlawful storing, keeping, or possessing of machine gun, military firearm, or sawed off shotgun or rifle.
It is unlawful for a person to store, keep, possess, or have in possession or permit another to store, keep, possess, or have in possession a machine gun or firearm commonly known as a machine gun, military firearm, sawed off shotgun, or sawed off rifle, except as provided in Sections 16 23 250 and 23 31 330.
A person who violates the provisions of this section, upon conviction, must be punished pursuant to Section 16-23-260.
SECTION 16-23-240. Unlawful sale, rental, or giving away of machine gun, military firearm, or sawed off shotgun or rifle; exceptions.
It is unlawful for a person to sell, rent, give away, or participate in any manner, directly or indirectly, in the sale, renting, giving away, or otherwise disposing of a machine gun, or firearm commonly known as a machine gun, military firearm, sawed off shotgun, or sawed off rifle, except as provided in Sections 16 23 250 and 23 31 330.
A person who violates the provisions of this section, upon conviction, must be punished pursuant to Section 16-23-260.
SECTION 16-23-250. Exceptions to application of article.
The provisions of this article do not apply to the Army, Navy, or Air Force of the United States, the National Guard, and organizations authorized by law to purchase or receive machine guns, military firearms, or sawed off shotguns or sawed off rifles, from the United States or from this State and the members of these organizations. Any peace officer of the State or of a county or other political subdivision, state constable, member of the highway patrol, railway policeman or warden, superintendent, head keeper or deputy of a state prison, correction facility, workhouse, county jail, city jail, or other institution for the detention of persons convicted or accused of crime or held as witnesses in criminal cases or persons on duty in the postal service of the United States or a common carrier while transporting direct to a police department, military, or naval organization or person authorized by law to possess or use a machine gun, or sawed off shotgun, or sawed off rifle, may possess machine guns, or sawed off shotguns, or sawed off rifles, when required in the performance of their duties. The provisions of this section must not be construed to apply to machine guns, or sawed off shotguns, or sawed off rifles kept for display as relics and which are rendered harmless and not usable.
The provisions of this article do not apply to any manufacturer of machine guns or military firearms licensed pursuant to the provisions of 18 U. S. C. Section 921 et seq., any person authorized to possess these weapons by the United States Department of the Treasury, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, or any other federal agency empowered to grant this authorization, any common or contract carrier transporting or shipping any machine gun or military firearm to or from the manufacturer if the transportation or shipment is not prohibited by federal law, or persons licensed pursuant to Section 23-31-370.
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Lee's Landing Billy
Member
I have 2 SBRs and 1 SBS with paper work on the way for another SBS. The SBS that I have is magical. It is a Remington 870 with rifle sights and a 12 inch barrel. Shooting 1 to 1 1/4 ounce slugs at tractor disc at 100 yards is great fun as everyone that that shoots always hits the first time. After that not so much, they get kinda flinchy. The other side is that shooting at a 4X8 sheet of plywood at the same distance it will not put 1 pellet on the board! It is for all purposes a .72 cal carbine. I have SBRs that are an 8 inch AR and a 10 inch Tommy. All of these are easy to get they just take a little time. Speaking just for myself, these short "long" guns are much easier for me to shoot.
It's not unusual at all for state law to be more permissive than federal law. As an example, Missouri law formerly prohibited previously convicted felons only from possessing concealable firearms. That caused quite a kerfuffle when a previously convicted felon who was aware of that law was arrested by the feds in possession of a shotgun. As you might imagine, the feds gave not a tin cow dropping about the state law. The offended party often argued to the Court that his state probation officer told him that he could have long guns as long as he wasn't violating federal law. The miscreants generally ignored those last eight words, and were astounded when their deer rifle became a problem. Missouri fixed this a couple years ago.
Lee's Landing Billy
Member
Just one last thing from me on this. I have in my safe a 14 inch Benelli brl for their Marine Corps shotgun. We were told that for my friend to have it in his possession WITH the shotgun in his home, before the paper work comes back is prima facia evidence that he INTENDS to put it together. The visiting agent, while telling us this with a smile, was DEAD serious. This also falls into the column of "if they want you..they will get you."
sigp220.45
US Veteran
I worked a killing where a Navajo fella fired from inside his house and killed another Navajo gent in his yard. There was just enough "gray area" to cause the US Attorney's Office to decline the homicide case based on a presumption of self defense. Too bad for the shooter he was a convicted felon and his 12 gauge H&R Topper was cut down to just in front of the forearm. Ten years.
model70hunter
Member
I used to buy lots of used Mossburg 500 shotguns. I'd put on a pistol grip and cut the bbl to 18.5"s no less, never wanted to error. Guys would ask for 18 but I said nope.
It was a good market for a while.
Ha, Ha and tell me why you want a front sight?
It was a good market for a while.
Ha, Ha and tell me why you want a front sight?
ARTICLE 5
Use and Possession of Machine Guns, Sawed-off Shotguns and Rifles
SECTION 23-31-310. Definitions.
When used in this article:
(a) "Machine gun" applies to and includes any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any combination or parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machine gun, and any combination of parts from which a machine gun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.
(b) "Sawed-off shotgun" means a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than eighteen inches in length or a weapon made from a shotgun which as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches or a barrel or barrels of less than eighteen inches in length.
(c) "Shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger. The term includes any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell but does not include an antique firearm as defined in this section.
(d) "Sawed-off rifle" means a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than sixteen inches in length or a weapon made from a rifle which as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches or a barrel or barrels of less than sixteen inches in length.
This was copied from South Carolina gun laws. The definition of "sawed off shotguns and rifles" is overall length less than 26 in. and shotgun barrels less than 18 in. and rifle barrels less than 16 in. Sawing off barrels is not a sawed off shotgun. Larry
Use and Possession of Machine Guns, Sawed-off Shotguns and Rifles
SECTION 23-31-310. Definitions.
When used in this article:
(a) "Machine gun" applies to and includes any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any combination or parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machine gun, and any combination of parts from which a machine gun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.
(b) "Sawed-off shotgun" means a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than eighteen inches in length or a weapon made from a shotgun which as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches or a barrel or barrels of less than eighteen inches in length.
(c) "Shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger. The term includes any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell but does not include an antique firearm as defined in this section.
(d) "Sawed-off rifle" means a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than sixteen inches in length or a weapon made from a rifle which as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches or a barrel or barrels of less than sixteen inches in length.
This was copied from South Carolina gun laws. The definition of "sawed off shotguns and rifles" is overall length less than 26 in. and shotgun barrels less than 18 in. and rifle barrels less than 16 in. Sawing off barrels is not a sawed off shotgun. Larry
Leatherhead23
Member
For those who are interested, Hickok45 has a YouTube video on a sawed-off double 12ga on loan (proper term?) from a Class 3 dealer. I believe the bbl length is 14". He compares group sizes with buckshot against his 20" Rossi coach gun. Frankly, there is no comparison: the 20" Rossi is light years superior to the sawed-off in patterning. Before this video, the sawed-off had been a grail gun for me. No longer (or should that be "no shorter" 
).
Kaaskop49
Shield #5103
).Kaaskop49
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I knew Randy Weaver before he moved to Idaho. You too?
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I remember reading that quote too, a long time ago, it seems. Might have been a Ayoob writing or in the American Rifleman.
forindooruseonly
Member
Unregistered sawed-offs will get you jail time for possession. I know a guy who did time and is now a convicted felon for possession of a sawed-off during a traffic stop. They will, make no mistake, enforce the law on the books.
Now let me complicate things - there ARE, for sure, Ithaca Auto-Burglars that have been excluded from the NFA by the BATF. James Julia offered two for sale a couple of years ago with the BATF letters. No registration, but you better haul that letter around with you... They were excluded not by class or make, but by serial number, making them uniquely excluded, which does not extend to other Ithaca Auto-Burglars. If you search this forum, you'll find an older post where we've discussed it before and there will probably be a link there as well.
As far as patterning, my sawed-off Ithaca with 11" barrels patterns only marginally worse, maybe, than my Mossberg 500 ATP with a cylinder choke. I'll have to find the pictures and upload them to photobucket, but it seemed to be not all that different between the two. Cylinder choke is cylinder choke, after all. I haven't done serious checking, maybe I'll do that next range trip.
Also, this thread is better with pictures.. I can't afford an Auto-Burglar, so I made what I could with what I could afford.
Now let me complicate things - there ARE, for sure, Ithaca Auto-Burglars that have been excluded from the NFA by the BATF. James Julia offered two for sale a couple of years ago with the BATF letters. No registration, but you better haul that letter around with you... They were excluded not by class or make, but by serial number, making them uniquely excluded, which does not extend to other Ithaca Auto-Burglars. If you search this forum, you'll find an older post where we've discussed it before and there will probably be a link there as well.
As far as patterning, my sawed-off Ithaca with 11" barrels patterns only marginally worse, maybe, than my Mossberg 500 ATP with a cylinder choke. I'll have to find the pictures and upload them to photobucket, but it seemed to be not all that different between the two. Cylinder choke is cylinder choke, after all. I haven't done serious checking, maybe I'll do that next range trip.
Also, this thread is better with pictures.. I can't afford an Auto-Burglar, so I made what I could with what I could afford.
JK-linux
Member
Pictures are good!
forindooruseonly
Member
So, I dug around and found the targets I used to pattern the sawed-off...
I used Aguila Minishells with 7 and 1/2 shot for ammo. Minishells are much easier to shoot comfortably out of the sawed-off, and I wanted to make sure I put the shot where I wanted it.
Both circles are the size of a Folgers Coffee container lid, despite the pictures making one look smaller, and both were shot at ten yards.
Full disclaimer - I know this isn't the best way to pattern a shotgun, in fact, it's pretty irrelevant as a test. It's just a comparison I did quickly just out of curiosity. I don't relish the though of taking out OOB and doing a bunch of serious work seeing which brand and load does best out of the sawed-off compared to the Mossberg. It's not why I have the sawed-off.
I have the sawed-off because, as a kid, I watched the movie pictured in JK-linux's post above and thought it was the coolest thing ever. Now I know better from a practical point of view, but there's still a fascination about short barreled shotguns for me.
Mossberg 500 ATP - 18.5" barrel with no choke, cylinder only:
Sawed-off Ithaca with 11" barrels, no choke:
Not a whole lot of difference. 33 versus 36 pellets out of the circle at ten yards. Pattern out of the sawed-off is slightly more diffuse, but at that range it is not the hallway-clearing pattern so many people expect it to be.
ETA: Added info, tried to fix rotated photo but couldn't. Sorry about that.
I used Aguila Minishells with 7 and 1/2 shot for ammo. Minishells are much easier to shoot comfortably out of the sawed-off, and I wanted to make sure I put the shot where I wanted it.
Both circles are the size of a Folgers Coffee container lid, despite the pictures making one look smaller, and both were shot at ten yards.
Full disclaimer - I know this isn't the best way to pattern a shotgun, in fact, it's pretty irrelevant as a test. It's just a comparison I did quickly just out of curiosity. I don't relish the though of taking out OOB and doing a bunch of serious work seeing which brand and load does best out of the sawed-off compared to the Mossberg. It's not why I have the sawed-off.
I have the sawed-off because, as a kid, I watched the movie pictured in JK-linux's post above and thought it was the coolest thing ever. Now I know better from a practical point of view, but there's still a fascination about short barreled shotguns for me.
Mossberg 500 ATP - 18.5" barrel with no choke, cylinder only:
Sawed-off Ithaca with 11" barrels, no choke:
Not a whole lot of difference. 33 versus 36 pellets out of the circle at ten yards. Pattern out of the sawed-off is slightly more diffuse, but at that range it is not the hallway-clearing pattern so many people expect it to be.
ETA: Added info, tried to fix rotated photo but couldn't. Sorry about that.
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