School me on variable power scopes vs red dot sights

[bevans555]

After researching red dot sights for my M&P Sport 2, I've decided I should also look into variable power scopes. I'm specifically looking at a Vortex Strike Eagle 1-6x24, but would like some general info on these type scopes.


I don't really have a specific use for my AR. I've just always wanted an AR and wanted a rifle that could handle a SHTF scenario. I guess I want my AR to be a worst case scenario back up plan/ fun gun/ jack of all trades.... which I know is asking alot.



I've recently been watching 3 gun youtube vids and noticed guys running 1-6x scopes on their AR's and its got me wondering if something like a 1-6x24 scope like the vortex strike eagle or similar would be the best option for me.... im nearsighted

So, whats the general consensus on small variable power scopes? If left on the 1x setting is target aquisition fairly quick? How's the eye relief on these? Is the proper technique still both eyes open? Any info regarding small variable power scopes vs red dots would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Kodiakco]

Vortex has also just came out with a 1-8x Strike Eagle! I currently have a 1-6x Strike Eagle on my AR. The biggest difference I've found is the weight. Due to their simplicity, red dots are much lighter. At my age and declining vision I really appreciate the variable nature of the 1-6x scope. The reticle is a little busier that a red dot with ranging and windage hold off marks. I shoot local 3-gun and prefer the Strike Eagle over a red dot. Another advantage to the scope is that a battery is not necessary for daylight operation. Most if not all lower cost red dots require a power source. Hope this helps.

Sent from my SM-T377V using Tapatalk

 

[jagular]

Even with SHTF you need to plan for the most likely scenario. Are you gonna be running around the wastelands picking people off at hundreds of yards or are you gonna be held up in your house defending at your doorstep? That's a whole other thread but you get the idea. If shooting minute of man accuracy at 200 yards is good enough the go the red dot route. If you want to punch smaller holes go with a 1-6 or even 3-9. 3-gun setups aren't necessarily practical for home defense. They're built that way for a specific purpose where the primary goal is speed and target acquisition at a certain distance.

What I would do...get the red dot as that will cover most of your bases (unless you want to be a super duper sniper) and then build another upper that is more so for precision. Then, when the zombies attack, you have your bases covered.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

1x red dot does a couple things real well. Provides fast target acquisition via unlimited eye relief and field of view as well as relief for aged eyes that struggle with irons in an environment where non magnified shooting is preferred. Small footprint and light weight. A magnified optic does everything else better. Target identification, precise aiming, ranging, holdover... and while not quite as fast as a 1x red dot, is still fast when magnification is on lowest setting. And of course a magnified optic is great for aged eyes. So really, the advantages of a 1x red dot are pretty narrow.

For those like the OP who aren't sure which way to go... I'd suggest a low power variable magnification scope 1-4x or 6 is a good general purpose optic to choose.

For me... I practice shooting offhand at steel targets from 50 to 200yds. My rifle is designated for self defense. So... light weight, fast target acquisition and reliability were the overriding criteria. 1x red dot -- Aimpoint Micro

If I were to go with a magnified optic I really like the Leupold VX R Patrol 1.25-4x with the FireDot reticle. I'd use a one piece mount.

 

[hdrolling]

There is always the more expensive way, Save up and try them all. Until you try you're not going to be 100% sure what you want.

And after you get what you want you might not like it after you try it at the range, or vise versa.

My Vortex scope has a QD mount that holds a zero very well after removing and replacing the scope on and off the rifle.

So in the past Ive kept the scope off and used a red dot for the first 5 mags at the 25-50 yd range. Then I'll put the scope on and move over to the 100-200yd range and shoot another 5 mags.

Yesterday at the range I left the scope and offset irons on my DD, left the Eotech and G33 magnifier on my BCM. On my Sport II I started with the Nikon and then installed the Aimpoint PRO and then installed the SPARC AR. It was a good day!

 

[C J]

unless you want to be a super duper sniper

Those wishing to become a "super duper sniper" should consider another platform IMO. You can pretty well with an AR. You can do great with a bol action rifle or possibly a really good semi-auto. But for the most part long range shooting is done with bolt action rifles. I realize a person can build an AR to shoot long distances but it will cost far more than a bolt action that will shoot the same distance.

There used to be a 500 yard range at the gun club I was in. I went there to shoot pretty often. I shot quite a few AR's including some AR-10's at that range. I also shot my Savage 12 LRPV .223. I could generally shoot minute of man with the AR's including the 10. I shot 5" groups with the LRPV. And the wind affected the accuracy. With a .308 rifle of the same design or similar it should be possible to cut down that 5" group size.

I love my AR. It's a great rifle in many ways including accuracy. But it doesn't compare to a purpose built long range rifle in terms of accuracy at 500 yards.

 

[rockquarry]

bevans555-
We all have different needs and wants and I respect the viewpoints of those who have formed educated opinions based on adequate experience. You mention low powered small variables. I've had success with a Leupold Mark AR Mod 1 1.5-4x20 using a Leupold integral mounting system on an AR. The scope has the very plain but quite functional duplex reticle.

I find this setup lacking in no way for general target shooting from the bench or offhand up to 200 yards. I seldom have an opportunity to shoot beyond that distance. Never had a red dot sight or seen a need for one, or anything on a gun that requires batteries. I see no use for cluttered reticles. But if a true pro says these are best for specialized applications, that's probably very good information, far better than my opinion. I am not a competitor.

I don't quite understand constant reference to guns intended for use in situations of total civil disorder or end-of-the-world crises. We should all be reasonably prepared but there is a big difference between that and a paranoid obsession.

 

[WR Moore]

As Phil notes above, the variable scope has some good points. Especially in locating targets somewhat distant. I"m debating such a purchase now. I love my Aimpoint PRO, but you can't hit what you can't see.

However, the issue is in finding a scope with features appropriate to the platform and cartridge. For instance, you really don't need:
instantly adjustable windage & elevation dials and reticules with hold over markers to multi-hundred yard distances.

The .223/5.56 mm cartridge is basically a 200-250 yard cartridge. If you zero the rifle at 50 yards/meters it won't be more than 2.5 inches above or below the sight line out to almost 250 yards. So protected adjustment dials are a good idea-otherwise adjustments may get moved by contact with gear/obstacles/idiots.

Now, can you hit a distances beyond 250 yards? Sure, but the wind drift of 55-60 grain bullets at a distance can be mind boggling. If you just gotta, work out your trajectory tables and hold high to match.

You mention 3 gun matches, remember that's a sport, not some reflection of reality. Also, that competitors would sacrifice their virgin daughters to gain a competitive advantage-either real or imagined. Trust me, a lot of gear gets sold that provides only an imaginary effect.

 

[Kodiakco]

As Phil notes above, the variable scope has some good points. Especially in locating targets somewhat distant. I"m debating such a purchase now. I love my Aimpoint PRO, but you can't hit what you can't see.

However, the issue is in finding a scope with features appropriate to the platform and cartridge. For instance, you really don't need:
instantly adjustable windage & elevation dials and reticules with hold over markers to multi-hundred yard distances...

You are way to narrow minded. Especially when it comes to competition and what someone needs. Sure, you can give your opinion but "need" is relative. Maybe YOU don't need variable optics or hold over/windage marks, that doesn't mean others don't or would not benefit from them.

As far as competition goes, I have not, as of yet, sold my children or wife for a competitive edge. I can tell you I'm a much better shooter than I was 2 years ago. Shooting while moving, transitioning from one weapon to another, reloading on the move, keeping track of shots fired, etc. These are a few of the things I have improved on while competing in 3 gun and action shooting. I'll also mention the friends I've made and the better shooters who I've learned from.

ETA: NRA High power rifle is shot out to 500-600 yards.

The rifles currently defined as "Service Rifles" include the M1, M14, M16 and their commercial equivalents

Courses of Fire
There are 4 strings of fire which are the basic building blocks of any NRA high power rifle course of fire or tournament. These are:

1. Slow Fire, standing - 10 rounds at 200 yards in 10 minutes.
2. Rapid Fire, sitting or kneeling - 10 rounds at 200 yards in 60 seconds.
3. Rapid Fire, 10 rounds prone - 300 yards in 70 seconds.
4. Slow Fire, 10 rounds prone - 500 or 600 yards in 10 minutes.

Sent from my SM-T377V using Tapatalk

 

[shep854]

What about a third option--a low power fixed (3 or 4x) magnification scope? Smaller, lighter, simpler and less expensive, it will still aid in target location and aiming to medium range, yet allow target pick-up at close range.

 

[C J]

The .223/5.56 mm cartridge is basically a 200-250 yard cartridge.

I can't agree with this. I've seen 18" groups shot at 1000 yards at Camp Perry that were shot by a teenager. He won the youth competition there and there is plenty of wind there. The cartridge was designed to be effective at 600 yards according to everything I've ever read. And my own experience is that you can shoot pretty effectively at 500 yards with a .223. I have a bolt action rifle that shot this target and this is pretty typical of what it does at 500 yards. Unfortuantely I don't get to shoot many actual targets at that distance because of having to go down the range to put up a target which means shutting things down for everyone else while you drive down the range and back. Plus there's a blind spot where people can't see you and someone may not know your there. So I shoot stuff people have left standing usually. Anyway this rock is about 2" thick. Someone painted spots on it about 5" in diameter. I only shot at one of them. The rifle shot through the rock where I was aiming. The space you see in the target was once another blue spot. I shot it out completely with about 10 rounds. Notice there are no holes around the spot I was shooting at. This is pretty typical of the results I get at that range and it's plenty windy there. It's on top of a strip mined hill and there's nothing to slow down the wind there. There are other bullet holes in the rock but I didn't shoot them. One of the other spots is circled to show what I shot out. The other circle shows where the other spot was. Keep in mind that the spot was pretty easy to hit when I first shot it. But knocking off those last pieces of paint wasn't quite so easy. The last shots had to be put in an area about 1" in size.

 

[vonn]

Stretching out your practice to longer ranges will make you become a better shooter because all of your mistakes will be magnified and show you problems that going back to the basics can help you solve.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

I can't agree with this. I've seen 18" groups shot at 1000 yards at Camp Perry that were shot by a teenager. He won the youth competition there and there is plenty of wind there. The cartridge was designed to be effective at 600 yards according to everything I've ever read.

Effective is about the equipment and intended purpose. My rifle is designated for SD.

I use Fed M855. I chose it for close range light barrier penetration characteristics, it's widely available and relatively inexpensive for practice. Those are my criteria. Rated muzzle velocity is 3020fps from a 20in barrel.

I use a 16in 1-7 barrel that delivers a 2928fps avg muzzle velocity measured with my chronograph. Lethal wound channel with M855 is claimed to be at or above 2500fps from some sources I've read.

From my rifle, M855 is traveling 2500fps at 150yds. With my 1x red dot I'm good for point and click shooting to about 200yds. It's about 2-3moa ammo. So everything is in the ballpark for what I'm looking for.

From my rifle, M855 would have a velocity of 1400fps at 600yds, and at 2-3moa would likely miss the threat entirely even in ideal environmental conditions let alone discuss lethality of wound channel. Effective? For what? Of course I could choose a different barrel and different ammo and different optics... on and on... and that gets back to the original point.

Getting back to the subject, how effective would a 10x scope be for my intended purposes and conditions where I live?

 

[LAA]

What about a third option--a low power fixed (3 or 4x) magnification scope? Smaller, lighter, simpler and less expensive, it will still aid in target location and aiming to medium range, yet allow target pick-up at close range.

I used a Vortex 3X with my Aimpoint Pro. I've since sold that AR. My wife's AR 15 has a Burris 3X with the Vortex Sparc AR. The 300 Blackout AR I'm shooting these days, has a variable power scope.

We are not into shooting 300-600 yrds with these rifles. I think the magnifiers are excellent for shots at 100 yrds, and very cost effective.

There are the purists out there, who think magnifiers belong in the junk box. Some are very vocal about that. As to myself, I don't get a kick out of shooting ARs for long distances.

If I do build another AR, it will most likely be an Aimpoint Pro & a magnifier again.

 

[BAM-BAM]

I'm in Phil's camp.........

IMHO the answer to all the "what gun" , "what scope", "what optic"...... questions are "Purpose driven".

In Pa you still can't hunt with a semi......... countryside is wooded and rolling...... at the present time I can't think of many justifiable self-defense shootings at ranges in excess of several feet; let alone 200 plus yards. ...... I don't compete anymore (was on the HS and College Rifle Teams).

Any "light sniping" at pesky varmints will be done with my Scoped CZ 527s in .223....... or .243. My scope of choice for the Laurel Highland/Allegheny Mountains where shots over 100yds are the exception and over 200 almost impossible to find; is a 1-4x20 Leupold

So for fun at the range; and if the "S ever does HTF" I'm a red-dot fan..... mine are Aimpoint PROs

 

[apollo99]

Reading what the OP is looking for, I would suggest a Red dot, smallest dot in mills ,and a 3X or 4X magnifier. This will give you the short range defensive rifle , and click over the magnifier and you can take shots out 100-200 yards, probably longer. This set up in a quality brand will not be cheap, but it will be something that will be durable and do everything but the longer sniper ranges.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Just my two cents. I like variable power scopes for hunting. I like red dots on fighting rifles. It's that simple.

 

[C J]

Effective is about the equipment and intended purpose. My rifle is designated for SD.

I have a couple of rifles like that. I've had several more over the years. I never meant to say that an AR should have any reason to be fired 600 yards but the military contractors claimed they were effective to that distance from what I've always heard. I don't plan on being in any battle. I have no reason to shoot long distances except for my enjoyment.

My only point was that the .223 is capable of shooting my farther than 250 yards. I responded to what someone else said. FWIW I have seen where people have built AR's to shoot long distances but that would be at the expense of the type of things you mention your AR is for. HD doesn't require a 600 yard rifle. BTW my yard looks just about like what you showed in the photo except the trees have probably shaded out a lot of the smaller stuff now. My house is surrounded by woods in fact. There are very few places around my home where shooting long distance is even possible. That gun range was the only one I had access to and they shut it down because people wouldn't follow the rules there.

Again I never meant to imply that anyone's AR should be a 600 yard rifle but the pitch for the rifle when it was first sold to the military was that it could be effective at 600 yards. You don't get many chances to prove that in my area.

UPDATE:

I did some looking around and found a few things. First this web site claims the effective range of the original 5.56 ammo was 460 meters.

The AR-15/M16: The rifle that was never supposed to be

This one says 500 yards effective range:

The history of the AR-15 - The Washington Post

I know I've seen some that say 600 yards.

 

[Wanderling]

I wanted to get a red dot but I also wanted to have fun at the range, and having to squint to see the bullseye is not my idea of fun. So I ended up with a 3-9 P223, at 3x I can quickly acquire sights on a clock across the room, so it's still useful at close distance.

 

[buckyjames1]

Red Dot or scope each have merit/pros and cons, here is just some food for though:

1. Weight: This is easily over looked, if you intend on lugging it around, a higher powered, bigger lens is going to add up fast. I would absolutely steer you away from a red dot and magnifier combo. I did it and luckily sold it for a loss of about $50, it was just too heavy. Add a light and mount, weight goes up. Want a laser...weight goes up, want a foregrip, it adds weight. Next thing ya know, that 5.56 platform is a heavy Sum.

2. If you go scope, I would recommend either a fixed x4 power or the typical 1-6 or 1-4x variables. 1-6 is arguably all the power you will ever need for practical range capabilities of the 5.56mm.

3. If you go red dot, consider battery life and type of battery AA Aimpoint version are phenomenal, tough, can come in 2MOA now, tough enough for military grunts = tough as nails.

4. Training: If your going to take classes, do snap shots, consider 100yd plenty distance, a red dot might suit ya better. In a SHTF scenario, how many times do you expect to be on a bench or properly resting the rifle in order to hit past 100yd. Chances are encounters will be snap shots or 100yds and less.

*Recommendations: ACOG x4 fixed, Trijicon Accupoint 1-4x, Aimpoint M4 or the micro. IMO the EOTECH was just alittle too busy reticle wise. That glass on the accupoint is a great bargain! If your tastes tend to go higher than above listed...sky is the limit.

*Whatever you decide to buy...Do not go cheap on a mount!

*If you buy a Red dot, you will (at some time) second guess and think..Hmm maybe I shoulda went with a scope. If you bough a scope, (at some time) you will second guess and think..Hmm I think I would like to try a red dot.