screaming snumb loads .38 spec?

[Erich]

I was told, many years ago, the maximum pressures listed for just about every cartridge would decline as the weapons which chamber it grow older and possibly deteriorate as a result. As old as the .38 SPL is, does it make any sense that a "Max" pressure listed in the books could be quite safe for a modern, even J Frame, revolver? I have wondered about that for years!

So, you were told that (cared-for) steel noticeably deteriorates with age over time periods measured by humans' lifespans? I think you need to talk to a metallurgist, amigo, to dispel that nonsense (which is what it is).

I know where you're coming from, though, Sourdough: I can't begin to tell you all the horsehockey that folks have told me over the years. When the people wrap themselves in the mantle of an expert, it's hard for a person outside the field to know what's what and to realize when the "expert" is full of it. (Don't get me started on "experts" and the topic of "one-shot stops," for instance! ) Anyhow, I sincerely urge you to talk to someone who knows about metal - that's nonsense that you were told.

 

[Jerry in SC]

Since most of us don't have access to pressure testing equipment, I remain skeptical that exceeding loading manual velocities by a significant margin is safe with powders available to handloaders.

John Barsness (formerly of Rifle and Handloader) wrote an article some time back on pressure testing. He tested loads using a major ammunition company's test lab equipment and technician. There were some loads that exhibited no classic pressure signs in his rifles, that were far exceeding maximum pressure recommendations.

His advice, and it makes sense to me, is that maximum pressure corresponds closely with maximum velocities in the loading manuals.

Keep in mind that every firearm is an example of one.

 

[grendelbane]

I was told, many years ago, the maximum pressures listed for just about every cartridge would decline as the weapons which chamber it grow older and possibly deteriorate as a result. As old as the .38 SPL is, does it make any sense that a "Max" pressure listed in the books could be quite safe for a modern, even J Frame, revolver? I have wondered about that for years!

Strange that 9x19mm cartridges haven't dropped pressure drastically over the years, even though they are about the same age as the .38 Special.

I guess I am lucky, my reduced recoil tolerance keeps me out of trouble with lightweight revolvers.

 

[Treeman]

Grendelbane, Ironically 9x19 started out in this country downloaded from the standards of its country of origin. Lugers were almost universally reliable with German military ammunition but had funtioning problems with US commercial ball.-Our makers dropped product average pressures for a safety factor and created substandard ammo for P08s. Of course 9mmx19 remains a "high pressure" pistol cartridge. I suspect that 9mm+P is simply loaded to the original pressures.

 

[Sourdough]

So, you were told that (cared-for) steel noticeably deteriorates with age over time periods measured by humans' lifespans? I think you need to talk to a metallurgist, amigo, to dispel that nonsense (which is what it is).

No, I think it had more to do with the fact corrosive primers and poor care caused lots of good weapons to deteriorate. Although, if you've been around the Forum awhile you've maybe read some of the discussions about the improvements in metallurgy which have come about in the last half century, let alone going back to the early years of the smokeless powder era. Some of the steel used back in the early 20th century seems hardly stronger than second hand Hershey Bar wrappers!

Whichever; when folks are putting their company's name on reloading data they tend to err on the side of safety. The first time I was warned to reduce pressure in old revolvers came in answer to a letter I wrote back in the '60s to the Lyman folks asking whether it would be OK to duplicate 9mm data in .38 S&W carts being used only in modern revolvers chambered for that cartridge.

The question was prompted by the fact the gun shop in town had a few nearly new S&W revolvers (as well as a lot of old, rusty ones) chambered for .38 S&W for sale for less than similar used .38 SPL revolvers. I thought maybe I could buy a nice gun in an unpopular chambering and save a few bucks.

I think the letter was passed around among the reloading department staff from the way the response was worded. Wish now I had kept it but I was a teenager and never thought to hang on to a negative response letter.

I was told not to proceed. They "could not" give approval for such a plan because of the unknown factors including how carefully I would prepare the ammunition, the condition of the firearm in which I would fire it, and the possibility someone might load an old weak revolver with my ammunition with disastrous results. The fellow said maximum loads are normally reduced in older cartridges due to there being old guns around which were no longer safe to shoot the original loads, and by no means should one increase their power. But he did say it sounded like an interesting idea!