Supadupa69
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Your body can’t go where your mind has never been.
Scripting your gun fight?
- Thread starter jbull380
- Start date
Baltimoreed11754
Member
Interesting thread. Never been in the military and I'm not a LEO so monthly gun games are the only shooting under stress training that I can afford to do. I don’t have thousands of dollars to go to Gunsite for a couple weeks every year. I shoot as often as I can with a variety of firearms and a variety of disciplines. I try to shoot as clean and as fast as I can. Btw, I’m only 72.
AJ
US Veteran
It has been interesting. I was on active duty for 24 years. I did shoot IPSC for a number of years. I did not have the thousands of dollars to attend Gunsite. However, I did attend a shooting school on active duty that was designed by Jeff Cooper for the Corps. This was when I was in an Anti-Terrorist unit. I was also taught to instruct in that school and our instructors were trained by Cooper at Gunsite. I still shoot three days a week and run a couple of matches monthly. Stress training? A little maybe. I still practice, practice and practice! Oh yeah, I am 72 also.....
Oddly, your first clause is utterly untrue, which negates your second.
It's not terribly surprising to find folks with opinions at odds with folks who have experience.
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Grayfox
US Veteran
I've never been an LEO. I am a veteran, but was a cold warrior. I did shoot IDPA regularly for about 12 years. That taught me a lot about shooting, movement and use of cover. I like to think that, if necessary, I could handle myself in a SD situation. But I'm not eager to test that assumption.
What I do believe is that the best way to survive a gun fight is to not get in one. That's my goal.
What I do believe is that the best way to survive a gun fight is to not get in one. That's my goal.
Long carry experience here. NO shots fired in anger.I've never been an LEO. I am a veteran, but was a cold warrior. I did shoot IDPA regularly for about 12 years. That taught me a lot about shooting, movement and use of cover. I like to think that, if necessary, I could handle myself in a SD situation. But I'm not eager to test that assumption.
What I do believe is that the best way to survive a gun fight is to not get in one. That's my goal.
From my inexperienced POV, IDPA can help teach a lot of useful skills. However, it seems to me that it may habituate one to running in the wrong direction.
Thank you for your courage, service and protection of your community in the gravest of extremes!
AJ
US Veteran
Nothing will really prepare you for a gunfight. All the training in the world does not really help much, it is the ability to preform under stress without really having to think about it. JMHO
Dicken
It has been very difficult to get reliable information about the Greenwood Mall incident but knowing that everyone is going to dispute every fact statement I make, nevertheless, here is what I have been able to learn.
*****
Dicken heard the shots.
He pushed his girlfriend down and out of the way.
From forty yards braced against the column and fired two shots, missed, some say one hit some say one shot only.
The AHWAG realized that he was receiving fire and stopped targeting shoppers.
Dicken advanced to the next column shouting and warning bystanders, and now 22 yards away (?) he fired several more shots all hits.
The perp's plan had been to retreat to the bathroom and ambush LEO's who entered after him(?) but is now unable to do so.
Dicken advanced again now to 10 yards (?) and fired more rounds all hits.
Dicken again closed to 3 or 5 or 7 yards (?) very close anyway and fired 1 or 2 more rounds. It was all over for a total of ten shots with 8 hits.
He is not answering questions so maybe one day we will get the real story.
He learned to shoot from his grandfather who must have taught him front sight focus and trigger squeeze. Maybe God did it.
He did not practice much but did LOTS of dry firing.
The rear sight had been damaged in a motorcycle incident, but the front blade was fine.
*****
In my opinion the very first shots, the misses, saved lives because of the bad guy's intention to retreat and die in the bathroom. Had he a different battle plan who knows.
In my opinion, Dicken's courageous, aggressive advance was decisive. I guess that noise confusion and panicked shoppers disguised Dicken's movement and prevented the AHWAG from returning fire.
IMHO his marksmanship at 25 yards, whatever at the second column, also probably braced, was decisive regardless of the perp's intent. We will never know what wound disabled him or at what range.
IMHO Dicken did not suffer any debilitation due to the stress response. Approximately ten percent of the male population are capable of this.
_________________________
The deceased victims from the Food Court were named by the coroner as Pedro Pineda, 56, of Indianapolis; Rosa Miriam Rivera de Pineda, 37, of Indianapolis; and Victor Gomez, 30, of Indianapolis. The Pinedas were husband and wife.
_________________________
I welcome correction, and please let me see your sources, OK? What I have said here is pieced together from dozens of sources and sorry I do not have footnotes or authority for it. Please TIFWIW. I did not mean to prove or argue for anything, just wanted to get my own questions answered. I am satisfied that Dicken did not fire all ten rounds from 40 yards as is commonly reported, but I also cannot confirm the three positions that I am relating here. The attorney, Relford, does confirm that the first shot, hit or miss, within 15 seconds of the start, was from 40 yards as he stepped it off himself at the Food Court. Relford also agreed to release no further details until the cops are finished. So, we may never know. Have fun criticizing me, but if you please, also confirm any of this if you can, with much thanks.
Kind regards,
BrianD
It has been very difficult to get reliable information about the Greenwood Mall incident but knowing that everyone is going to dispute every fact statement I make, nevertheless, here is what I have been able to learn.
*****
Dicken heard the shots.
He pushed his girlfriend down and out of the way.
From forty yards braced against the column and fired two shots, missed, some say one hit some say one shot only.
The AHWAG realized that he was receiving fire and stopped targeting shoppers.
Dicken advanced to the next column shouting and warning bystanders, and now 22 yards away (?) he fired several more shots all hits.
The perp's plan had been to retreat to the bathroom and ambush LEO's who entered after him(?) but is now unable to do so.
Dicken advanced again now to 10 yards (?) and fired more rounds all hits.
Dicken again closed to 3 or 5 or 7 yards (?) very close anyway and fired 1 or 2 more rounds. It was all over for a total of ten shots with 8 hits.
He is not answering questions so maybe one day we will get the real story.
He learned to shoot from his grandfather who must have taught him front sight focus and trigger squeeze. Maybe God did it.
He did not practice much but did LOTS of dry firing.
The rear sight had been damaged in a motorcycle incident, but the front blade was fine.
*****
In my opinion the very first shots, the misses, saved lives because of the bad guy's intention to retreat and die in the bathroom. Had he a different battle plan who knows.
In my opinion, Dicken's courageous, aggressive advance was decisive. I guess that noise confusion and panicked shoppers disguised Dicken's movement and prevented the AHWAG from returning fire.
IMHO his marksmanship at 25 yards, whatever at the second column, also probably braced, was decisive regardless of the perp's intent. We will never know what wound disabled him or at what range.
IMHO Dicken did not suffer any debilitation due to the stress response. Approximately ten percent of the male population are capable of this.
_________________________
The deceased victims from the Food Court were named by the coroner as Pedro Pineda, 56, of Indianapolis; Rosa Miriam Rivera de Pineda, 37, of Indianapolis; and Victor Gomez, 30, of Indianapolis. The Pinedas were husband and wife.
_________________________
I welcome correction, and please let me see your sources, OK? What I have said here is pieced together from dozens of sources and sorry I do not have footnotes or authority for it. Please TIFWIW. I did not mean to prove or argue for anything, just wanted to get my own questions answered. I am satisfied that Dicken did not fire all ten rounds from 40 yards as is commonly reported, but I also cannot confirm the three positions that I am relating here. The attorney, Relford, does confirm that the first shot, hit or miss, within 15 seconds of the start, was from 40 yards as he stepped it off himself at the Food Court. Relford also agreed to release no further details until the cops are finished. So, we may never know. Have fun criticizing me, but if you please, also confirm any of this if you can, with much thanks.
Kind regards,
BrianD
A word about training....
In law enforcement there are about 1.1 million officers & agents enforcing laws that are similar but not the same in social environments that are somewhat similar. As a result there is an enormous pool of ever-changing information on the kinds of policing situations that require tactics to avoid the use of force, and to use the minimum amount of force to accomplish a lawful purpose in every circumstance. Large agencies do after-action review of use of force incidents, major critical incidents that do not end up requiring force but well could have, and both internal and external complaints about unjustified or excessive use of force. That information is shared with executives and with training units; training units are constantly looking for ways to improve training to minimize or eliminate use of force in known circumstances, then to teach minimum use of force, again for lawful purposes. Marksmanship, decision making under stress are but small but critical elements of total training.
The things that nearly every US police officer will do are make arrests in widely varied circumstances, make vehicle stops for infractions to deadly felonies, respond to armed, barricaded suspect incidents, domestic violence (cold or in-progress), search houses or businesses with no idea if they are occupied, and a bevy of other circumstances. Training programs need to prepare them for all.
What a lot of what passes for civilian firearms training does is a tiny fraction of one part of preparation for use of force. Please, please, please do NOT have unrealistic expectations of common 'practical shooting' training or gamesmanship.
Not shooting people is nearly always the best course of action.
In law enforcement there are about 1.1 million officers & agents enforcing laws that are similar but not the same in social environments that are somewhat similar. As a result there is an enormous pool of ever-changing information on the kinds of policing situations that require tactics to avoid the use of force, and to use the minimum amount of force to accomplish a lawful purpose in every circumstance. Large agencies do after-action review of use of force incidents, major critical incidents that do not end up requiring force but well could have, and both internal and external complaints about unjustified or excessive use of force. That information is shared with executives and with training units; training units are constantly looking for ways to improve training to minimize or eliminate use of force in known circumstances, then to teach minimum use of force, again for lawful purposes. Marksmanship, decision making under stress are but small but critical elements of total training.
The things that nearly every US police officer will do are make arrests in widely varied circumstances, make vehicle stops for infractions to deadly felonies, respond to armed, barricaded suspect incidents, domestic violence (cold or in-progress), search houses or businesses with no idea if they are occupied, and a bevy of other circumstances. Training programs need to prepare them for all.
What a lot of what passes for civilian firearms training does is a tiny fraction of one part of preparation for use of force. Please, please, please do NOT have unrealistic expectations of common 'practical shooting' training or gamesmanship.
Not shooting people is nearly always the best course of action.
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From what I see here is whilst most are “scripting” their future gunfights they might as well engage a good choreographer too. That way they can have a little “Traveling Music” on tap to get them away from situations.
What is a relief to me is most big mouths do nothing. Which is generally a plus for the public. PDs have policy in place on high speed pursuits. They break off when it’s endangering the public.
What we have here in America is same thing they have in 3rd world. Except
in 3rd world they execute criminals fairly swiftly, if not immediately. Here they are protected from prosecution. The people behind this are who scare me.
What is a relief to me is most big mouths do nothing. Which is generally a plus for the public. PDs have policy in place on high speed pursuits. They break off when it’s endangering the public.
What we have here in America is same thing they have in 3rd world. Except
in 3rd world they execute criminals fairly swiftly, if not immediately. Here they are protected from prosecution. The people behind this are who scare me.
Ingramite
Member
Mark Twain said that it's easier to fool someone than convince them that they have been fooled.
Fantasy Gun Fighting has sold more widgets than anything else to come down the pike.
But try to convince someone that they have been fooled into desecrating their carry weapon with every accessory known to man. They will be quick to tell you all about how their pistol is set up to knock down communist rocket attacks and kill snipers firing from passing jet liners.
But the most convenient use of The Fantasy Gun Fight Syndrome is trying to convince your Finance Minister that the kids college fund is short because you're prepairing for war.
Fantasy Gun Fighting has sold more widgets than anything else to come down the pike.
But try to convince someone that they have been fooled into desecrating their carry weapon with every accessory known to man. They will be quick to tell you all about how their pistol is set up to knock down communist rocket attacks and kill snipers firing from passing jet liners.
But the most convenient use of The Fantasy Gun Fight Syndrome is trying to convince your Finance Minister that the kids college fund is short because you're prepairing for war.
Aardvark With A Gun. Maybe not 'aardvark'....
Laughed out loud. This is the post of the day for the whole internet!
Thank you with my compliments Ingramite.
Kind regards,
BrianD
ASP
Kind regards to you and hyena.
BrianD
I copied AHWAG from John Correia, who possibly was the one who coined the acronym, who wants us to avoid granting the shooter the benefit of notoriety. Let the names of Pedro and Rosa, the Pineda's, and Victor Gomez be remembered forever!
Kind regards to you and hyena.
BrianD
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Well Armed
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Great post.
While perhaps not to the danger of working a night shift in present-day west Chicago, training people totally unfamiliar with firearms to the standard required for Chinese police in Shanghai, circa 1926-1940, is my benchmark. Shooting to Live with One-hand Gun, by Fairbairn and Sykes, published in 1942, describes in detail the process they developed to bring skill (and instinctual habit??) of totally novice Chinese nationals to the skill level with handguns required to police non-European Shanghai, China, the most violent and dangerous city in the world during that time.
Training strongly emphasized self-defense in darkness at extremely close range under extremely unfavorable conditions for the defender - in these instances being uniformed and/or plain clothes Chinese police.
Some of its more advanced training is extremely difficult to arrange for when not attending instructional course. On the other hand, civilians do not police pre-war Chinese Shanghai or any other dangerously violent city at night.
Reprints of this book is available from Paladin Press or as no-cost download at Internet Archive.
I believe this class of "Point Shooting" is used by Israel, also by several instruction training schools.
Hope this helps.
It’s true that no training can really prepare you for a gunfight because no two situations are alike. All we got in the late ‘60s was bulls-eye targets, mostly slow fire back to fifty yards. Our training became more scenario based following my 1974 gunfight, including moving while shooting, night fire qualification & weak hand drills. It’s also true that the ability to function under extreme pressure w/o thinking is what carries the day. I still recall thinking “did that really just happen” as my sergeant arrived on the scene.
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