Second Generation Colt Buntline 45lc (update post 22)

[rwadley1]

I hate to ask about the value a gun, but I can't find a lot of these that have sold recently.

I found this Colt Buntline in 45LC and I'm considering it. It's in very nice condition. The stock aren't as yellow as the appear in the photos. I think they are either ivory or some sort of bone.

Any thoughts on value?

 

[505Gibbs]

They appear to be ivory based on the pics. Don't see any turn line. North of $2500 I'd say. Let's see what others say.

 

[s&wchad]

The serial number would help. Is that a 2nd or 3rd generation gun? Anything else included (box, papers…)?

 

[rwadley1]

I think it's a gen 3, but I'm trying to confirm the serial number.

 

[rwadley1]

I am told it's a second generation revolver and based on comparing the patent dates roll mark to known examples I tend to believe it. I am still waiting to verify it with the serial number. Might tomorrow before I can do that.

It is just the revolver as shown. No box, etc.

 

[2152hq]

In the 3rd pic,,the closeup of the left side.
The trigger guard....
The front attachment section of the guard has the normal Colt 'VP' final inspection range stamp.

The rear section appears(?) to have a stamp on it also.
It kind of looks like the * mark that Colt used for many years to signify factory repair or refinish. But it's blurry in the pic even when enlarged.

This mark ( * ) is more often on the right side of the trigger guard in this rear position but is found on the left side as well.

It is often found with a factory repair date code somewhat like S&W used This would be hand stamped on the inside surface of the gripframe backstrap or trigger guard strap.

An example: 662B would be a June 1962 refinish/Blue (&Casecolor)

Sometimes the Year was marked first and the Month second...626B

This can be confusing on some guns but on a 2nd or 3rd gen SAA thisparticular example date would obviously be a 1962 repair/refinish,,,not something done in 1926!

Maybe what I think I see as an * on the trigger guard isn't anything at all but a bad pic.
But I thought it worth a mention.
A refinished Colt SAA, even one done by Colt, has quite a different value than the orig finish.

 

[rwadley1]

I blew up the original photo and it appears to be tool marks from someone removing the rear screw to me. What do you think?

 

[2152hq]

Yes it does look like some dings in the bluing in your pic there.
The backstrap and TG screws do like to loosen up on the SAA when the guns are shot. Ruger had that problem too.

Maybe some marks from tightening the screw(s). Looks like scratches in the countersink of the screw hole in the triggerguard from a screwdriver blade as well.

I think it was Colt that used the very thin red nylon/plastic 'lock' washers on their action and frame screws to help avoid this. This was somewhere in the production of the 3rdgen I think.
Ruger may have used the same thing or perhaps the little nylon cross plug in the threads of the screws to help lock them in place.

FWIW,,the barrel on these (2ndGen Buntlines) should have a number stamped on the bottom separate from the guns ser#.
All had a prefix of 'BB' and the #'s started at 100
This was the 'Buntline Barrel' #
BB789 for example

This was done by Colt on the 2nd Generation Buntlines supposedly so the bbls' could not be removed and simply reinstalled on a 1st generation SAA creating a very rare 1stgen revolver.
I believe the Colt collectors community had something to do with this move, or so I have been told.

IIRC, just over 4000 2nd Gen Buntlines were mfg'rd.
...Plus if I recall correctly the Colt Service & Repair Dept. would sell a separate Buntline Bbl to a customer. Those 'repair bbls' would have a BB# as well.
Repair Bbl's Post WW2 generally have their address & caliber roll markings in different format and location on the bbl than the factory bbls used for orig assembly. So they are easy to spot.

If the gun is all orig finish and matching I think a $2500 price is on the high side of retail.
The grips MAY be Ivory,,if they are , that would be a big plus and could make up for some of what I see as over price for the gun.
I'm not sure the grips are orig to the gun, nor are they 'Colt' factory ivory,,so again the value of them as ivory grips has to be figured accordingly.
The fit of the grips doesn't look to be that precise in places as well.

Personally, with no box or papers and with the slight wear on the gun, I'd think a price of $1700 would be about right w/o the grips figured in.
Then the grips could be a take it or leave issue.
Take them at $xx if you really like then. Or leave them and search out a set of orig black Colt grips that likely came on the gun.

Orig grips would have been the black plastic checkered grips for that Model. But ivory could certainly have been special ordered it
Only a Letter would tell you what that gun left the factory with.

I think the front face of the cylinder should have the assembly or Batch number stamped on it. That same number should be on the inside surface of the loading gate. Usually a 3 digit#,,,it is separate and does not match the ser# (unless by some wild chance ).
The assembly number is also found on the bottom surface of the frame but you would have to take the trigger guard off to see it.

2nd generation gun should have the removeable cylinder bushing. Same as the 1stgen guns.

3rd gen guns went to a solid bushing/non-removeable.
The ratchet star design on the 3rdgen is different that the 1st/2nd gen guns as well and the 3rd uses a different style hand because of it.

The so-called 4th generation guns are simply 3rdgeneration guns that resumed the use of the removeable cylinder bushing.
4th Generation was never an official Colt Factory term.

 

[rwadley1]

I really appreciate the detailed followed up. I will try to get another look at the revolver and pay attention to the numbers and the details you describe.

Independent of the fact that I just like it, given the values you mention and the sellers asking price, it sounds like this one will be a good one to have.

The long barrel isn't my favorite, but it sounds like it is less common and that adds to the interest.

I understand it will take a letter to determine if the stocks are original to the gun, but is there a way to determine if they are genuine ivory? The end grain in the last photo makes me think they are, but you don't seem convinced.

Thanks, 2152hq

 

[2152hq]

I'm not convinced the grips are ivory.
The outside appearance of the surfaces on the sides leaves me with doubt. J ust the look of the surface, hard to explain,,,and I am not talking about the color at all.
They have a plastic look to me, but again it's just pictures I'm looking at.

No cracks at all on th sides,,pristine inspite of the cracks on the bottom surfaces that on occasion run right up to those side surfaces.
The 'cracks' that are there on the bottom surfaces are nearly duplicated on each panel.

There are faint 'grain' lines in the matr'l that you can see on bottom surfaces. Those are only in Elephant ivory IIRC.
That's good. But not being more prevelent makes me step back a bit.
Some of the early Ivory Substitutes had somewhat similar lines. Paper Micarta for one and was very popular for use in making grips.

Real Ivory will pass the Good 'ol hot pin test.
That is a pin heated red hot when stuck into the matr'l will mearly burn a hole in it and smell like butning hair.
It will not melt the matr'l. If the stuff does melt, it's a plastic or epoxy substitute.
Some of the sub matrl's used later (80's/90's) were mixed with real ivory dust to make a more realistic material. But the stuff will still melt the plastic/epoxy base it's made with with this test.
Most dealers frown on a red hot pick being shoved into the grips of a gun they have for sale.
But a tiny pin point mark on the back side to prove they are what they are being sold as shouldn't be an issue IMO. If they are like most hand cut Ivory grips, there are plenty of saw, chisel and file marks on the back side of them.

Another test is to simply shine a Black Lite/UV on the material.
Real Ivory will glow brite white in the dark. Sometimes a faint blue color with it as well.
Any of the substitute matr'ls will no glow as they absorb the UV lite and not reflect it.
There is plenty of info on this type of test on the Net.
A cheap UV flashlte can be used.
Some experts in the antique field say that using this test is not 100% as 'some' ivory will not glow. I don't know if that is true, or which types do not show,,maybe certain other species of ivory like Walrus or Whale maybe(?).

Ivory is heavy when compared to plastic/epoxy substitute material. Unless you are familiar with it, you'd likely need a set of both in hand to compare. But then the difference is very noticable.
Same goes for real and fake Pearl grips.

Just some observations. Things to consider.
Just don't pay for Ivory when it isn't.

 

[rwadley1]

Got it. I don't think they will allow me to do the hot pin test, but I'm sure I can remove them and check weight and tool marks when I am checking for stampings.

Based on the font of the inscriptions on the barrel, do you think it it been rebarreled?

Thanks

 

[2152hq]

It looks like a standard 2nd gen Colt Buntline bbl from the markings.
All 2nd Gen Buntlines were 45Colt I believe
All were roll marked Colt Buntline Special .45
..supposed to have the 'BB#' on the bottom of the bbl (Buntline Special#)

 

[rwadley1]

I will look for that. Did you get my PM?

 

[bigmoose]

When zooming in on that photo of the grip bottoms, I see what appear to be Shrager lines. That is indicative of real ivory. Also it appears that maybe sometime in its past the stocks could have been stained with that old home remedy of regular old tea. Good luck with your discoveries and your possible purchase. A Colt is a Colt, after all.

 

[rwadley1]

I was able to capture several stampings and the insides of the stocks.

Based on the serial number, I think it may be a first year gen 2 buntline!

Any red flags?

 

[rwadley1]

Photos of the stocks. I am thinking they are a natural product, but didn't think they were particularly heavy. I have never handled genuine ivory.

Thoughts?

 

[bigmoose]

My thought? Buy the darn thing before someone else does. After seeing the new photos, I stand by what I said earlier.

 

[Dr Charlie]

It's ivory. Grab the gun with the grips. JMHO

 

[Mblhopo]

The gun is a 2nd gen made in 1958 grips are Ivory (est: $1000.00 for the grips) care to tell what there asking for the gun....................................M*

 

[rwadley1]

I am still working on the price. I will share if I get the deal done.