Self defense gun sight in

[oldman45]

Just a reminder that a 100 yard shot in a public mall would likely endanger a lot of people and from 100yards, a person cannot tell what is really going on or why. I doubt a court would say a 100 yard shot was justified.

I, my own self, was involved in a situation where I was about ready to shoot once at 50 yards as a group of "thugs" had ran a vehicle into a ditch with their pickup. They jumped out and prceeded to use bats on the auto with one lone occupant. My pastor and I watched it happen from the start and I was about ready to pop a cap to prevent the thugs from beating the guy to death. Just as I gave a verbal command, a state trooper pulled up and pulled the occupant from the vehicle. It was later learned the thugs had followed the man from a park where he had ran over a child after beating a lady up in her own home. The thugs pushed him into the ditch and disabled his auto with the bats until police could arrive. From a distance, one cannot correctly access the situation. JMHO

 

[Jellybean]

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Am I missing something here?

The chances that you will ever have to take a 100 yd. self defense shot are slim to none, but even if the "slim" ever happens, I'm ready, but to say it would never happen is just plain stupid.

To answer your question Gutpile...This is a practice I developed when I was a police officer.
Find your chosen carry load, then go to the ballistics program listed above and put your numbers in the correct boxes. Enter the zero distance at about 25 yards, which is usually the factory zero, or somewhere close to it. You should find that as you get out to 100 yds there is quite a bit of drop. Now do the same, but put the zero at 100 yds. and compare the results. When you raise the sights to compensate for the drop at 100 yds, it only raises the mid-range increase by one half.

Also, by sighting in at 100 yds, the point of impact should be above the line of sight at any distance out to 100 yds., meaning you can see what you are shooting at as opposed to shooting blindly because your hands/firearm are blocking the target.

The vast majority of self defense shootings are close, very close. So close that I'd never even think about using my sights. In fact I don't really have any use for the sights at all, unless I have to shoot at an extended range. For those shoots I take my ammo out to the range and shoot it at various distances to see where it might impact.

I'd waste my time shooting out to 100 yds and never have to use it, then to practice out to 5 feet because that is where 80% of shootings occur, only to end up as one of the other 20%, or worse yet, the <1% that happens at further range.

 

[pete950]

I not understanding this!
100 yard shot go to the carbine
new qualification course for Ill LEO's is 18ft 21ft and only 6rds at 45 ft

Pete

 

[Jellybean]

I not understanding this!
100 yard shot go to the carbine
new qualification course for Ill LEO's is 18ft 21ft and only 6rds at 45 ft

Pete

Let me ask you a question. My property is about 430 yards deep, I'm walking back by the river carrying a handgun when the neighbor decides he wants to shoot me. You're saying I'd be better off running past him to get to the house to get a carbine. Or say I'm visiting my brother who lives in an even more remote area with large open areas all around. I walk out by his pond when some nut job, such as a drug dealer that he sent to jail, decides to get even. The best thing for me to do is get in my car and drive home to get a carbine, since he only owns a shotgun and has a duty sidearm, then drive back to save my brother? I don't know of any one that carries a carbine with them where ever they go and I have seen a lot of situations that a handgun was the only practical choice at the time.

The Ill, requal sounds even worse than Ohios. They decided that since most shootings occured within 10 ft. there was no use in shooting at 25 yards. Their longest distance now is six rounds at 54 ft. all the rest are 21 ft or less. Apparently they never thought about the fact that if you can hit a target at 25 yards, 10 ft is a piece of cake. Officers shooting scores, and performance, have plummeted from what it used to be, but that is probably due more to the "new and improved" training.

 

[szuppo]

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Am I missing something here?

Nope, you're reading the same thing I am.........Mall Ninjas taking them out at 100 yds.!

 

[fiasconva]

100 yards??? I can't even see 100 yards. What am I gonna hit at that range??

 

[flop-shank]

Nope, you're reading the same thing I am.........Mall Ninjas taking them out at 100 yds.!

We don't agree with you guys about being able to shoot out to 100 yds., so that makes us mall ninjas? I think that pretty much everyone in this thread has stated that the likelihood of needing to make such a shot is quite remote (of course I found that my silly, unrealistic 25 yd. zero managed to come in handy on a certain woodchuck, but whatever). Yet you seem unable to wrap your brain around the concept that having a longer range zero, so long as it doesn't hurt marksmanship at closer ranges, only gives one another tool that could be used, even if it is unlikely to be needed. Perhaps the "mall terrorist" at Trolley Square and Von Maur are just figments of our "mall ninja" fantasies. If I were in a mall and such an event went down I would leave if at all possible, but sometimes that can't be done if family members are elsewhere in the mall.

I find your post to be less than civil and your thinking less than logical.

 

[kennyb]

If you are shooting someone 100 yards away, it's no longer a self defense firearm. I sight my daily carry in at 15 yards, but I shoot it a lot at both shorter and farther distances as well.

a huge +1.....

 

[kennyb]

Let me ask you a question. My property is about 430 yards deep, I'm walking back by the river carrying a handgun when the neighbor decides he wants to shoot me. You're saying I'd be better off running past him to get to the house to get a carbine. Or say I'm visiting my brother who lives in an even more remote area with large open areas all around. I walk out by his pond when some nut job, such as a drug dealer that he sent to jail, decides to get even. The best thing for me to do is get in my car and drive home to get a carbine, since he only owns a shotgun and has a duty sidearm, then drive back to save my brother? I don't know of any one that carries a carbine with them where ever they go and I have seen a lot of situations that a handgun was the only practical choice at the time.

The Ill, requal sounds even worse than Ohios. They decided that since most shootings occured within 10 ft. there was no use in shooting at 25 yards. Their longest distance now is six rounds at 54 ft. all the rest are 21 ft or less. Apparently they never thought about the fact that if you can hit a target at 25 yards, 10 ft is a piece of cake. Officers shooting scores, and performance, have plummeted from what it used to be, but that is probably due more to the "new and improved" training.

what data are you using to support "officers scores have plummeted"?and over what section of the country are you attaching this to?with supporting data

 

[ladder13]

If you are shooting someone 100 yards away, it's no longer a self defense firearm.

Yeah, it's called hunting.

 

[writerinmo]

Lets see the argument in this one... in any of the above "100 yard" scenarios, where the other shooter has a rifle, how steady do you need to be to even come close to them returning fire? Dead damn steady, I will bet unless you are just playing the luck. Well, guess what they are doing while you steady yourself, take a breath, get your sight picture and slowly squeeze off a round? They are using their superior firepower and accuracy to plant a round right between your 'non-moving' eyes...

If you come under fire at that distance and you have no cover and the inability to retreat then by all means you will have to engage. About the only way that would happen is if you just finished rappelling off a cliff and found yourself pinned at the bottom, or you just wrecked your vehicle and are pinned in it. Movement is the best defense in this situation, and usually away from the shooter. If you absolutely for some reason have to advance, then you should run low and fast, watching the shooter and moving to his left if he appears to be a right handed shooter as he will have to adjust his body more in that direction to maintain a sight picture on you.

I worked for years as an assistant director of security in one of the San Jose CA malls as well as one that used to exist up in San Mateo Ca. Pretty much every mall that I have been in offers good cover (planters, recessed doorways) so that you can advance closer to where your chances of a hit are much better. If they were on a rooftop of a mall and you were out in the parking lot, I could see taking cover behind a vehicle and taking a stance supported by the fender, etc. and attempting a shot, just in the chance of taking them out and preventing further assaults on others. But if we are talking probabilities, I think that most all will agree that a short range "involvement" is much more likely to occur. Which is why I sight mine in at short distances, but shoot on out to about 75 yards tops. Beyond that I would have to have some sort of a rest or just be throwing lead downrange and hoping for a hit.

 

[Jellybean]

what data are you using to support "officers scores have plummeted"?and over what section of the country are you attaching this to?with supporting data

The part of the country is NE Ohio, on the agencies I have first hand experience with. The data was obtained by watching it happen.

writerinmo;
Lets see the argument in this one... in any of the above "100 yard" scenarios, where the other shooter has a rifle, how steady do you need to be to even come close to them returning fire? Dead damn steady, I will bet unless you are just playing the luck. Well, guess what they are doing while you steady yourself, take a breath, get your sight picture and slowly squeeze off a round? They are using their superior firepower and accuracy to plant a round right between your 'non-moving' eyes...

I see the exact same thing here, that I see in most of the other negative comments. You are using your knowledge and abilities with a handgun and a rifle at 100 yards and saying that nobody is better than you are. In your argument above The outcome may not be as concrete as you seem to think as it would all depend on who is shooting the handgun and who is shooting the rifle. Feel free to think that anyone with a rifle will beat anyone with a handgun at extended ranges all the time, but I don't agree with you...either. I have tried your scenario on a range and the outcome was surprising. How steady do you need to be at 100 yds to hit a target with a handgun? Until you try it, you'll never know.

 

[pete950]

Jellybean,
no harm intended, a states attorney will look at someone being 400+ yards away they are not a threat, also I was answering the question from the stand point of Me being the range master for my Police Dept and operating in very big city and also answering the question from my own personal experiances that every time I have been involved in a use of deadly force situation to defend myself or another it has been between 7 and 15 feet. and that is what I understood the question to be I'm not working or living in a ruel area.

Pete

 

[setxn]

Can I shoot a handgun accurately at 100 yrds yes,,but it wouldn't be what I would carry at the mall.My short barreled lower powered carry guns were not built for this use and would bring little positive effect to this scenario. Gather your flock and walk away,run if needed,personal and family protection doesn't include clearing the mail.If I was rifle shooting at the other me using a handgun at 100 yrds- the rifle would win hands down!

 

[pete950]

Setxn well put

 

[oldman45]

In the event a person is faced with a rifle shooter 100 yards away, they have already lost the fight.

A rifle will beat a handgun most of the time.

Yet anyone that makes a 100 yard shot with a concealed carry type weapon is just plain lucky. I likely shoot as much and as often as anyone here and with a large assortment of weapons. I would not attempt a 100 yard shot with a concealed weapon since there is too much room for error and a bullet, once fired, cannot be called back. Also I have never in my 38 years of LEO experience and court trials have never heard of anyone needing to shoot at 100 yards in self defense as a civilian. It is so rare that I cannot ever remember a police situation where 100 yards was the distance between shooters.

My advice and warning: If someone were to get accidentally struck by a wayward bullet being fired 100 yards away, it is most likely the D.A. would not say it was self defense and a Judge would not buy it either. From 100 yards away it is impossible to determine what is going on and a handgun shot from an unscoped weapon would be at a person that cannot be identified.

 

[kennyb]

The part of the country is NE Ohio, on the agencies I have first hand experience with. The data was obtained by watching it happen.


I see the exact same thing here, that I see in most of the other negative comments. You are using your knowledge and abilities with a handgun and a rifle at 100 yards and saying that nobody is better than you are. In your argument above The outcome may not be as concrete as you seem to think as it would all depend on who is shooting the handgun and who is shooting the rifle. Feel free to think that anyone with a rifle will beat anyone with a handgun at extended ranges all the time, but I don't agree with you...either. I have tried your scenario on a range and the outcome was surprising. How steady do you need to be at 100 yds to hit a target with a handgun? Until you try it, you'll never know.

give it up jellybean....

 

[Jellybean]

Jellybean,
no harm intended, a states attorney will look at someone being 400+ yards away they are not a threat, also I was answering the question from the stand point of Me being the range master for my Police Dept and operating in very big city and also answering the question from my own personal experiances that every time I have been involved in a use of deadly force situation to defend myself or another it has been between 7 and 15 feet. and that is what I understood the question to be I'm not working or living in a ruel area.

Pete

Pete, wether a person 400+ yards away is a threat or not depends entirely on the circumstances at the time, you can not rubber stamp every situation as being what you might think it is. My whole premice here is that if I can pull a handgun and engage a target at 100 yds, anything closer is going to be easy. With my carry ammo sighted in at 100 yds the 50 yard trajectory is about 3.5". All I'm doing is learning how to shoot a smaller target in a faster amount of time. Wether or not I will ever have to do such a feat is doubtful, wether or not I can do it is already answered. Look at all the negative and demeaning responses I've gotten by people that have no real knowledge about what they are saying. I am speaking not of things that I have read about in a gun magazine or heard in a over priced shooting school, I have done it, and I have done it with handguns that onlookers thought it impossible to do.

By the way, from 1995 to 2004, out of a total of 545 reported shootings of police officers, 268 of them were at a distance of 0-5 feet, 107 from 6-10 feet, 65 from 11-20 feet, 47 from 21-50 feet, and 41 were over 50 feet. This information wasn't given in 17 shootings. This information is from the FBIs publication "Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted" and also contains a lot of other information that fellow law enforcement firearms instructors should know, instead of just assuming.

Posted by setxn;
Can I shoot a handgun accurately at 100 yrds yes,,but it wouldn't be what I would carry at the mall.My short barreled lower powered carry guns were not built for this use and would bring little positive effect to this scenario. Gather your flock and walk away,run if needed,personal and family protection doesn't include clearing the mail.If I was rifle shooting at the other me using a handgun at 100 yrds- the rifle would win hands down!

Have you ever shot your everyday carry gun at 100 yds? I have done it with a Bryco 38T and a Jennings J22, although it was a little more difficult with their poor sights, it can still be done. I never mentioned "mall" by the way. Yes I know all the legal aspects, that running away is usually the best idea, yada, yada, yada, but I'm really surprised at some of the responses I've been reading, and they're calling me a mall ninja.

 

[BarbC]

So, as someone who is not really that familiar with ballistics calculations, I'd like to know how much energy is left in a .38 at point of impact at 100 yards? I would think that it would have to be an incredibly lucky shot to actually do stopping damage at that distance.

 

[pete950]

The point is in a self defense situation or being shot at your adrenilen is pumping so hard there is no way you can shoot accuratly at most long distances and there for you are liable for where that bullet goes, the question was if I remember correctly is what distance would you sight you defenseive hand gun at.
My reply would be the same distances as a LEO which is as close as 3 feet doing a speed rock out to about 45 feet.

Pete