Self defense gun sight in

[Jellybean]

writerinmo,
There was an on-line ballistics program listed in the begining of this thread so you and everyone else does have one, plus there are other on-line, free to everyone versions that are even better. The ballistic data available from most major ammo manufacturers is enough to do the same thing I mentioned above because the figures are not going to be that exact in practice, as you have mistakenly assumed.

You have obviously formed an opinion and are not even listening to what is being said, let alone trying to understand it. Do whatever it is that you can understand and good luck with it. It appears that you are the one that wants to argue and your attempt to draw more people into your fiasco is proof of it, and more I'm afraid. I misjudged your sincerity and character and have no one to blame but myself.

celticfisherman, If you are still here, I apologize to you for allowing this thread to be trolljacked in this manner.

 

[celticfisherman]

Don't worry about it. Looks like a simple question was blown out of proportion.

Liked your comments by the way.

 

[writerinmo]

jellybean...

As a recreational shooter who doesn't reload, I have little use for a ballistics program.

And yes, I have formed an opinion, but I have chosen to keep it to myself. My point wasn't to argue, simply to point out that your opinion as to what distance to sight in a 3' barreled revolver has... shall we say, wide variations from pretty much everyone else's? Which would lead me to several questions in my own mind, but probably the largest and most puzzling would be why you felt the need to initiate a personal attack on me for debating your opinion and methods, and attempt to label me as a troll? It's a puzzling thought, perhaps one that you might enlighten me on, as I have said nothing against the website, or S&W firearms in general, as a matter of fact the only posting on my entire history where anyone seems to have taken offense was on this one, and only you. Perhaps I have offended you, if I have then I apologize for any non-factual remark that I might have made without realizing it, although I don't recall making any.
The fact is that you keep on posting, even though the question has been answered time and time again, so it had obviously struck some sort of nerve for some reason that people would question the legitimacy of your opinion. See, the problem with opinions are that everyone has one, and we are all entitled to them, and a forum is for the open discussion of these opinions, not for personal attacks or namecalling such as "troll" or "idiot" and the like, something that you seem to have forgotten.

IMHO it certainly seems like time for a mod to lock this thread down, since it has denigrated into a personal diatribe for Mr. Jellybean...

 

[straightshooter1]

It's sort of funny how a simple discussion can turn into a potential train wreck.

For me, sighting a handgun in at 100 yards makes no sense at all, BUT, I don't live in anything approaching a non-urban area where such a long shot might be necessary. If I did, I'd very seriously consider that.

I live in TampaBay, very urban, and can't imagine a shot longer than 25 yards. Most likely closer, a lot closer, than that.

When I was a young policeman, we had to qualify at 50 yards, so I sighted my Model 28, and later my Model 19 for that range since I wanted to be one of the top shooters at qualifications.

Later, I sighted the Model 19 in at 25 yards when we dropped the distance for qualification to that distance.

I no longer carry an adjustable sighted firearm for defense, but the old Model 19, now relegated to the "bathroom gun" is sighted in at 15 yards.

I see nothing wrong with sighting one's firearm in so that it is dead-on at the longest distance one thinks he or she may have to shoot.

Or not. After all it is his or her gun, isn't it?

Bob

 

[Jellybean]

Thanks celtic, X2.

 

[PDL]

Not going anywhere near the argument about what's the 'right' distance, if you don't use the science available to you, you're wasting resources. Even if you don't reload, factory ammo has basic ballistic info for the rounds.
You can plug their info into a ballistics program and get a whole lot of useful info.
JB, don't sight my handguns at long range,(that's what rifles are for), but I do used ballistics info to get the best out of my guns. And if I know that my handgun round has a 23 in drop at 100 is still useful.

 

[keith44spl]

A Thread to Remember

Well Boys,

I've been lurkin' here in the back row fur a while...Jest couldn't stand it no longer.
Years from now when someone recalls this historic thread I want to be where I can say,

"Hell, I was there!"

Jest like the rest of ya.

But, I sight most of my everyday carry handguns in at 25 yards or less...I have sighted or 'shot in' at
longer range just to see what the sights and the hold would look like, check windage and such.

The little woman and I started to the barn one winter morning, upon opening the corral gate
I's spy this ol' coyote, he's a trotting across the hay meadow about 125 yards distance.
Just held up about the same amount of front sight as I did when bustin' cow piles at that
range while jest 'checking them sights' equals one lung shot yodel dog.

Wife says,"I believe you hit that coyote!" Lookin' over my spectacles, I says, "Well that's what I was aimin' to do!"

Oh, before I fur-get I was a shootin' a 24-3 with a 3" barrel, loaded with a 237gr. 429421 SWC (cast from linotype) over 15.gr 2400.

Shootin's kinda like ropin', it takes about a 10K practice throws to pitch that 1 perfect loop.

Su Amigo,
Dave

FWIW, When I'm get shot at...I shoot back, period. The range or distance be damned.

 

[Jellybean]

Pete, I'd meant to respond to your post on page two, but got sidetracked. You are right about using the ballistic trajectory of a bullets path to choose your sight setting. It's like the step elevator type sights on military rifles, such as an SKS. If you look at them they have the standard steps for certain distances, then if you move the sight all the way back it sits in it's generic combat position.

But as good as the charts are for long range estimates, if you really want to shoot something at that range you really do need to practice shooting at that range. If you shoot a 3" group at 25 yards, it would make sense to assume you will shoot a 12" group at 100 yds, but this isn't always true. Many people make mistakes that don't really show up at the 25 yard line but they will be more noticable when you get to the 100 yard line. Also the ammo itself might not be suitable to the task and some will perform infinitely better than others at 100 yards but appear to be equal at the 25 yard line. The results of this were exaggerated using .22 lr ammo out of a 4" K-22. At 25 yards they grouped into a tight little circle, but at 100 yds they strung out vertically to the point they almost cut the target in half.

"Hell, I was there!"

Keith, welcome to the party. You know, that would make a great title for a book.

 

[celticfisherman]

Well Boys,

I've been lurkin' here in the back row fur a while...Jest couldn't stand it no longer.
Years from now when someone recalls this historic thread I want to be where I can say,

"Hell, I was there!"

Jest like the rest of ya.

But, I sight most of my everyday carry handguns in at 25 yards or less...I have sighted or 'shot in' at
longer range just to see what the sights and the hold would look like, check windage and such.

The little woman and I started to the barn one winter morning, upon opening the corral gate
I's spy this ol' coyote, he's a trotting across the hay meadow about 125 yards distance.
Just held up about the same amount of front sight as I did when bustin' cow piles at that
range while jest 'checking them sights' equals one lung shot yodel dog.

Wife says,"I believe you hit that coyote!" Lookin' over my spectacles, I says, "Well that's what I was aimin' to do!"

Oh, before I fur-get I was a shootin' a 24-3 with a 3" barrel, loaded with a 237gr. 429421 SWC (cast from linotype) over 15.gr 2400.

Shootin's kinda like ropin', it takes about a 10K practice throws to pitch that 1 perfect loop.

Su Amigo,
Dave

FWIW, When I'm get shot at...I shoot back, period. The range or distance be damned.

OK.... This one goes down as a classic!!!

AMEN!!! Defense doesn't necessarily mean from 2 legged critturs. Could be 4. And I am sure there are lots of us here that spend time out and about in the woods.

But again shooting all the time just makes one better. Multiple ranges. Multiple targets. Multiple scenarios.

Maybe that is the answer to my question in reality. Just shoot.

 

[writerinmo]

Lol... I have to agree there! I don't really need much of an excuse to go out and throw some lead downrange. Blessed with a wife that loves to shoot too, the only time I would catch any grief is if I wanted to go by myself!

 

[cjcutter1]

25 yards does the trick for me if the original question is still in play.

 

[sheriffoconee]

yup, if anyone else is really reading this thread anymore, 25 yards for a fighting pistol is plenty enough for me...

 

[PDL]

But as good as the charts are for long range estimates, if you really want to shoot something at that range you really do need to practice shooting at that range.

Absolutely agree with you, I make every effort to verify the trajectory paperwork actually matches the real world. But I figure if it's where it's supposed to be at 10, 25, 30, and 50 yds, it should be where it's supposed to be at 75 and 100 etc.

Once upon a time I didn't worry about trajectories etc. I had a 1911 that was only loaded with tracers. Made subsequesnt shots a whole lot easier. Kind of like shooting with a garden hose, only they looked more like flaming baseballs. Guess I couldn't get away with that now.
WTH, it wasn't my gun anyway, who cared if the barrel burned out. I just felt that I might miss with the first one, but wasn't about to with the second.

 

[smithman 10]

Distance to sight in your self-defense handgun

I zero mine in at 100 yards. For non-adjustable sights I shoot my carry ammo at 100 yds to make sure I know where to hold.

I've been reading the posts and find it amazing all the argument generated.

Like most posters, I've sighted in my adjustable sight revolvers and one semi-auto at 25 yards. My fixed sight revolvers seem dead on at 25 yards anyway.

And like most posters, I agree a 100 yard defensive scenario has a probability approaching 0% of happening.

BUT - Just for fun, every now and then I'll take a crack at a silhouette target at 100 yards with a 4" barreled Model 15. I hold a little high from a rest and usually get a few rounds on paper. (Single action, of course). Like I said, just for fun and out of curiosity to see what I can do.

For those who say they wouldn't be able to see a target at 100 yards - have you been to the rifle range lately? If you have normal vision you should be able to see a figure at 100 yards with no problem. I've never had a problem seeing folks changing their targets at 100 yards when the range goes cold!

 

[Model29Lover]

Well said ASA335

I'm with Jellybean on this one.

I'm reminded of the two police officers that were pinned down in an open parking lot by a guy wielding a rifle from 75 yards out. They had never trained past 25 yards, so they didn't have the skill or knowledge to pin him down or make hits (I recall Mas told of this event in one of his famous examples).

Jellybean practices out to as far as 100 yards. He knows taking a shot in self defense is unlikely at that distance, but he knows that if he can hit the target (I assume a silhouette) at that distance it also means it's easier for him to hit the target at lesser distances. I'm sure he shoots at these lesser distances also, to verify. He's not saying to expect threats or that you should engage at this distance, but that training out to that distance can be a plus; also that zeroing at this distance has little effect on point of aim at mid-range for the guns/ammo that he uses for self defense (and I know this can be true).

I believe he recognizes the risks (both criminal and civil) of taking long range shots, but given the right "totality of circumstances" he is prepared to attempt such a shot to defend himself and others – because he trains for such.

When I was shooting for an Army team, I used to demonstrate that an arms-room issue M1911A1 could be used at 100 yards with minimal shift in point of aim. I could put seven out of seven into a standard silhouette target (torso) – not what I would call a group, but they were all in the torso. I would also occasionally demonstrate that it was possible to go out to 200 yards with my .357 magnum at the same type of target.

I (and Jellybean probably) understand that under stress our skill at any distance is degraded. One of the Army matches I used to shoot was called the George S. Patton Jr. Match. It entailed running two miles in field uniform, with helmet and load bearing equipment with full canteen, firearm, magazines, ammo and any other gear we would use on the firing line. At the end of the two mile run we had little time to setup to engage our targets at 25 yards. I shot this match three times in the mid-day heat and humidity of Panama. Though my 25 yard score suffered because of this run, my scores were better than most (100% hits on target, but not a tight group) because I practiced out to 100 yards – if you can hold true at 100 you can hold truer at 25.

The above was/is true for me in the "run in place for 2 – 3 minutes" drill. Yep, my groups aren't as tight, but they are still (mostly) in the "A" zone.

Give Jellybean some credit for his training out to 100 yards. If you give it a try and really think about it, it does have some merit. We live within our limitations, but many of our limitations are established by us. I'd ask that you extend your shooting limitations.

In the Marine Corps we quailified out to 5oo yards with the m-16 a2. With the Beretta 92 or M9 out to 25 yards. I thought we should have qualified at longer distances with the M9 at that. My point is the longer distances you fire at, the more proficient you are at shorter distances! The regular Army doesn't qualify at 500 yards in boot like we do, so if you compete Army right out of boot with Marines right out of boot at 500 yards, chances are the Marines will win because of training at that distance. If the situation is right, one may have to take a shot at longer distances, period. JellyBean's point is valid, when the police departments shorten distances because of statistical data of the distance of shootings, then shooters skills diminish at longer distances and shorter distances alike, that is just reality. Unless they practice at long range on their own time. Longer range shooters are just better at shorter distances, because they train at all distances. I don't understand why this makes people mad. I guess it is because most ranges don't allow anyone to practice with handguns at that distance and they want to rationalize why that is ok with them anyhow!!!!?