Self-Defense Loads for Snub Nosed Revolvers

...four layers of denim...19 inches penetration...expansion to 44 caliber (.429 actual diameter)... non +P ...

Buffalo Bore .38 Special 158 gr Semiwadcutter Ammo Test - YouTube

That video is a little misleading in terms of what it does not say.

1) 850 fps is a lot for a standard pressure load in a 2" revolver, so I want to see the actual pressure data before I'd call it a standard pressure load. I've never really trusted BB's pressure claims.

Still, if it's really a +P load, no biggie.

2) A 4 layer denim test is well known for causing hollow points to plug, which tends to reduce expansion and increase penetration compared to bare ballistic gel. You really need to see the bare gel results as well to verify that it will penetrate at least 12" if it fully expands.

3) In this case, the expansion was .431, which works out to only 1.2x the original diameter. That's not what the FBI or any one else calls adequate expansion.

4) In comparison, the same guy did a test with a Hornady 158 gr XTP, in non +P form, and it demonstrated 18" in a 4 layer denim test and delivered 1.5x expansion from a snub nose revolver.
 
Show me those stats, and I'll show you a misunderstanding, outright mis use of statistics, or an example of statistical problems from small samples, limited population, high standard deviation, confounding variables, etc.

You are obviously in agreement with my inference that such "statistics" based on ridiculous "findings" are meaningless for all the reasons you mentioned -- and more.
 
That video is a little misleading in terms of what it does not say.

1) 850 fps is a lot for a standard pressure load in a 2" revolver, so I want to see the actual pressure data before I'd call it a standard pressure load. I've never really trusted BB's pressure claims.

Still, if it's really a +P load, no biggie.

2) A 4 layer denim test is well known for causing hollow points to plug, which tends to reduce expansion and increase penetration compared to bare ballistic gel. You really need to see the bare gel results as well to verify that it will penetrate at least 12" if it fully expands.

3) In this case, the expansion was .431, which works out to only 1.2x the original diameter. That's not what the FBI or any one else calls adequate expansion.

4) In comparison, the same guy did a test with a Hornady 158 gr XTP, in non +P form, and it demonstrated 18" in a 4 layer denim test and delivered 1.5x expansion from a snub nose revolver.

Indeed. Not only is a "magic powder" required to push a 158 grain LSWCHP to 850 fps from a 1 7/8" barrel while generating less than 17 kpsi MAP (to be "standard pressure"), expansion --even in sim-test -- is almost trivial. In tissue or ordnance gel this round, despite being made of dead-soft lead, would most likely not expand at all (perhaps only deform somewhat) when fired through 4 LD from a snub. So, in essence you get, terminally speaking, less than you would from a wadcutter with this round, but you sure pay more.
 
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Man, this thread reminds me of how I over-thought the ammunition I was buying for my J's back in the 80's. I was always looking at FPS & ME calculations in those days, too. Back then pretty much most of what we had from which to choose was the stuff designed for use in 4-6" barreled revolvers. The early frangible stuff was expensive, and was known to be shallow in penetration. Some of the specialty stuff was hard to find, and relatively expensive, like the .38 Spl Scorpion Hydra-Shok.

Nowadays we have some more options in better designed JHP's from some major makers. The little snubs are once again enjoying a resurgence of interest by folks looking for easily carried CCW options, and it no doubt helps that the venerable .38 Spl snub's are once again enjoying attention by LE users as both secondary & off-duty weapons, too.

I've reviewed my fair share of factory gel testing and hosted gel test events, and have decided that my own needs for snub revolver loads can be met by more than a single major maker, and I don't particularly see the need to resort to a specialty small ammo maker. I dislike being too attached to any one particular load, as production and market availability issues can make finding a single load difficult, or expensive.

For my +P capable snubs, I usually try to keep some various loads on hand, including the Speer 135gr +P GDHP SB, Remington 125gr +P HPJ/BJHP (Golden Sabre), and Win 130gr +P RA38B (same thing as the PDX1 sold in 20-rd boxes). I also have some remaining Rem & Win 158gr +P LHP/LSWCHP, and even some of the Speer 125gr +P GDHP (which is mostly used for range ammo, if the 135gr GDHP is hard to find at any given time and I want to cut back on burning it up for the range).

For my 37-2DAO Airweight, in which I only use standard pressure loads, I try to keep an assortment of Win 110gr STHP (newer version), Federal 110gr Hydra-Shok, and recently I added some Hornady 125gr XTP (American Gunner).

I even have some older carry loads in my ammo supply, left over from some years ago. I think I have most of a box of Federal 158gr Nyclad LHP +P (back when I rather liked the 158gr LHP +P loads), and most of a couple boxes of some Win 147gr JHP +P I was trying for a while (I vaguely remember reading about some early gel testing and deciding to pick up some boxes).

The little snub .38's are pretty much a study in compromise, though, as most people find them harder to shoot than larger revolvers. The very attributes that make them so handy for lawful concealed carry also tend to make them harder to shoot well, especially under duress and at speed.

Some folks still seem to find the 148gr HB wadcutter to be an appealing choice for them, even though it's a pretty low velocity load, and usually made with a very soft lead bullet.

Others don't seem to mind if "limited" to using plain standard pressure 158gr LSWC loads. (Those would be my last choice, along with the 130gr ball loads, but they're low recoiling & accurate enough, in the hands of folks sensitive to recoil, and at least offer heavier bullet weights than .380 ACP loads.)

I don't try to make my 5-shot .38's into something they aren't, meaning I don't try to "Magnumize" them. I can use .357 Magnum in 3 of my 5-shot snubs, if I really feel the need for that, but the only one that consistently sees Magnum loads is my Ruger SP101DAO 2.25". My pair of M&P 340's usually see one or another +P load, because of the better controllability and speed at which I can shoot them using +P vs. Magnum.

It's all a balanced compromise, especially with the little 5-shot snubs. Getting solid hits in vital anatomical spots is pretty important, regardless of the ammo choice, and misses not only fail to be hits on the intended threat target, but present real danger "down-range" to any unintended targets.
 
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Those that deem decent 9mm 124 gr., or lighter, JHPs fired from a 3" pistol terminally adequate for self-defense (seems like almost everyone and his sister nowadays does) should feel just as terminally comfortable with the .38 snub (that uses a few decent +P JHPs). However, there certainly are .38 special rounds that when fired out of a snub will result in .380 ACP pocket pistol type terminal performance. Some evidently still long for '80s 125 grain Nyclad LHPs, standard pressure, for use in their snubs;however, there are some significantly more effective rounds available for a snub these days. Whether you shoot quite well or not, the decision whether terminal performance matters or not is yours. It won't matter until it matters and then it will matter a lot.
 
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1) 850 fps is a lot for a standard pressure load in a 2" revolver, so I want to see the actual pressure data before I'd call it a standard pressure load. I've never really trusted BB's pressure claims.

Still, if it's really a +P load, no biggie.

FWIW, as much as I like BB's "standard pressure" LSWCHP load, I treat it as +P.
 
Same excellent choice

I drove myself nuts trying to figure out what 38+P round to carry. Finally I read how Speer developed a 135gr. 38+P load to replace the sucessfull 158gr. LHP. After reports of it working well on the street, I went with it. I enjoy in watching Jello Tests on YouTube but, Street Results are what counts in my book. NYPD had good results in 2" and 4" back up and off duty guns. They were so pleased that other Police Departments authorized its use. I believe the article was written by Masad Ayoob. Good enough for me.

I made the same choice for my j frames. I always use those gold dots in my S&W 340 (no lock, and I added the S&W Crimson Trace Grips so it appears to be an 340CT without the lock).

I don't think 357 magnum is practical in a light weight j frame. 38 special + P is perfect.
 
.../SNIP/....I dislike being too attached to any one particular load, as production and market availability issues can make finding a single load difficult, or expensive.../

/...The little snub .38's are pretty much a study in compromise, though, as most people find them harder to shoot than larger revolvers. The very attributes that make them so handy for lawful concealed carry also tend to make them harder to shoot well, especially under duress and at speed.../

/....I don't try to make my 5-shot .38's into something they aren't, meaning I don't try to "Magnumize" them. I can use .357 Magnum in 3 of my 5-shot snubs, if I really feel the need for that, but the only one that consistently sees Magnum loads is my Ruger SP101DAO 2.25". My pair of M&P 340's usually see one or another +P load, because of the better controllability and speed at which I can shoot them using +P vs. Magnum.

It's all a balanced compromise, especially with the little 5-shot snubs. Getting solid hits in vital anatomical spots is pretty important, regardless of the ammo choice, and misses not only fail to be hits on the intended threat target, but present real danger "down-range" to any unintended targets.

I standardized on the 125 gr XTP in a +P hand load, mostly because it is almost always available and I can afford to shoot about 3 times more of them than I could anything else.

I agree with you that the J frame sized revolvers (I include the SP 101 here even though it's about 5 oz heavier than a Model 60 with the same length barrel) are basically expert's guns and I suspect most people who carry them don't shoot them very often or very well even under ideal range conditions.

I shoot a lot and I'm well above average as a hand gun shot, including the J-frame, but I still don't carry a full power .357 Magnum load in a Model 60 for four reasons:

a) it's painful to shoot and thus not something I'd practice with nearly enough, and light target loads just are not the same from a training perspective;

b) a steady diet of .357 Magnum is hard on a J-frame and while the slightly heavier Ruger SP101 will tolerate it better, it still isn't something I want to shoot a couple hundred times in a range session (see reason "a" above);

c) the .357 Magnum isn't very efficient in a 2" barrel, and doesn't offer much more than a .good 38 +P load anyway. In a 3" barrel it's better, but you still need a load optimized for a short barrel; and

d) and even though I am a very good shot by most J-frame standards, I still shoot my 2.5" Model 66, my 3" Model 13 and my 2 3/4" Speed Six a lot better with either +P loads or .357 Magnum - and those handguns are not much less comfortable or concealable in a good IWB holster with a good belt.
 
Those that deem decent 9mm 124 gr., or lighter, JHPs fired from a 3" pistol terminally adequate for self-defense (seems like almost everyone and his sister nowadays does) should feel just as terminally comfortable with the .38 snub (that uses a few decent +P JHPs). However, there certainly are .38 special rounds that when fired out of a snub will result in .380 ACP pocket pistol type terminal performance. Some evidently still long for '80s 125 grain Nyclad LHPs, standard pressure, for use in their snubs;however, there are some significantly more effective rounds available for a snub these days. Whether you shoot quite well or not, the decision whether terminal performance matters or not is yours. It won't matter until it matters and then it will matter a lot.
I'm down to 12 nyclads[emoji19]

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
 
Great input. Thanks. I rarely carry my beloved snubbie any more because my eyesight isn't what it was 20 years ago, and I shoot better with my Shield 9MM. I figure the 124grain Federal HST is a pretty good load, but I've been toying around with moving up to the 147 grain version. However, when I do carry the snubbie I've got it loaded with Remington's +p 158gr LSWCHP.

I was just at the local Academy the other day buying range ammo for it, and got to wondering how a FMJ would work as a self defense load considering that many people recommend FMJ for .380 pistols. I like the Remington FBI load a whole lot, and don't see any reason to go down to FMJ for my self defense needs.
 
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Great input. Thanks. I rarely carry my beloved snubbie any more because my eyesight isn't what it was 20 years ago, and I shoot better with my Shield 9MM. I figure the 124grain Federal HST is a pretty good load, but I've been toying around with moving up to the 147 grain version. However, when I do carry the snubbie I've got it loaded with Remington's +p 158gr LSWCHP.

I was just at the local Academy the other day buying range ammo for it, and got to wondering how a FMJ would work as a self defense load considering that many people recommend FMJ for .380 pistols. I like the Remington FBI load a whole lot, and don't see any reason to go down to FMJ for my self defense needs.
Stick with the Remington 158 gr. +P LSWCHP; no contest.
 
SELF DEFENSE 38 SPL.

Go to Buffalo Bore's site.
Check his 38 special hard cast wad cutter self defense ammo.
Read his description.
While there read the story by the Alaska guide who used a 9mm
semi to stop a grizzly whith BB's Outdoorsman ammo.
PoliViejo
 
Look in to the Lehigh Defense rounds. The have been tested and perform very well in .380. No worrying about them having to expand, and the bullet creates lots of damage. If I carried a snubnose, I'd load it with these.

lehigh-defense-38-special-p-140gr-xtreme-penetrator-ammunition_2048x2048.jpg


38 Special +P 140gr Xtreme Penetrator Ammunition – Lehigh Defense, LLC
 
Show me those stats, and I'll show you a misunderstanding, outright mis use of statistics, or an example of statistical problems from small samples, limited population, high standard deviation, confounding variables, etc.
I don't think so. None of the bolded above will reverse results. The case you are referring to is a result of cherry-picking data, which is not statistics at all, but rather wrapping a selection of chosen individual cases in the math of statistics and pretending that it is "science." You know - like M&S.

Edit: Sorry if this comes across as a disagreement with BB57. It is not. In fact, I believe that either misunderstanding or outright misuse of statistics, one of his first two choices, was exactly what he was observing. I merely wanted to clarify that the bolded errors would not lead to a ridiculous conclusion like the cited example.
 
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Unless you're LE or military, the probability of actually using your gun against another person is so close to zero it's virtually impossible to measure. Things could change; and, if they do, I will begin to worry more about putting some high-end loads in my little snubs. Actually, if things change, all of my carry and house guns will be 357 Magnums with 4 inch or longer barrels. . .not 38 snubs! For now they are all 38 snubs loaded with wad cutters for my wife and with standard velocity semi wad cutters for me.
 
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