Selling and transferring question

[505Gibbs]

For those non-FFL holders that sell across state lines - a question.
I've been doing it for several years to thin out the crowd. Never had a dealer not wanting to send a copy of their FFL until my last sale.
He sent me enough to verify on EZ Check but on that form the expiration date doesn't print out.
UPS locally knows me well enough that I still shipped the gun. They were
curious where the rest of the digits were on the EZ Check copy I took with me.
I called the ATF and somehow ended up in Washington D.C. and their person was VERY nice. She knew what I was speaking of and said there are enough 'bad guys' that a local ATF agent may have said to the dealer not to share because the 'bad guys' are getting phony licenses made up with the info on them.
I guess in the future I'll ask for the full FFL number and the expiration date.
Up to this point I' think I did about 15 sales.
So . . . what's been your experience?/

Thanks all

 

[H Richard]

Without a hard copy of a newly signed (original ink) FFL there is no sale.

 

[Inusuit]

I guess it depends on the seller. I've bought several firearms and sent my shop's FFL as an email attachment. Other times I've sent a xerox copy. Never been turned down or questioned.

 

[llowry61]

My FFL has a downloadable copy right on their website. I keep one on my desktop to send to the seller. Never an issue.

L

 

[alwaysoutdoors]

Had this very same thing happen today . I don’t feel comfortable shipping without a emailed or hard copy license. It’s been that way for twenty years whether I was buyer or seller. The sale got cancelled due to FFL not sending their license to me.

 

[Absalom]

I wouldn’t be any better at spotting an inked hard copy fake than a pdf. fake, so for several years I’ve shipped sold guns (through my FFL dealer, who approves) after getting the buyer’s FFL copy as an e-mail attachment. But without that, no sale. I certainly wouldn’t ship based on info gotten over the phone. Nobody has tried that yet.

 

[bushmaster1313]

BATFE EZCheck will give you the license expiration date

BATFE EZcheck

 

[Sevens]

Guess my situation is similar. Bought my first ever gun via computer-and-shipped to an FFL back in maybe 2010 I think. Before then it was always in a gun store. Found my FFL through a local state-based grassroots political gun-rights group of which I'm still a proud, active member and I'd been using the same FFL ever since after developing a friendship with him.

Well, after a turn of events, he is recently out of the FFL game and now I'm trying to find a new dealer and to be honest, I'm picky.

One of the thing I seek most is an FFL that doesn't mind if I have a .pdf copy of his license simply so that I can quickly, smoothly and accurately share that information immediately with the seller.

I've been beating my damn head against a brick wall to try and find an FFL that is willing to share his license.

I need a local friend with a license, and I'm starting to wonder if I'll ever find that again.

 

[Chuck24]

I work in a pawn shop that does transfers, I convinced my boss to let me do it to bring more traffic into the shop. I charge 15.00 the lowest in our area and have been quite successful. All anyone has to do is give me a fax or a e mail and the copy is usually sent within 10 minutes. People that have done a lot of business with us and I know I will give them a copy if they want to do it that way. Another wrinkle is the ATF is really behind on their renewals, so our license shows expired so the ATF sends out a LOA, letter of authorization to continue operating and I also send a copy of that. The LOA may also be checked on the verify system.

 

[Bladeswitcher]

Although it's common practice for FFL's to provide a copy of their license to non-licensed individuals in order to facilitate a transfer, doing so is not required. Nor is it recommended by the ATF.

The ATF created the EZ-Check system so that non-licensees can verify the legitimacy of FFLs. That's what it's for.

The PROPER way for an unlicensed person to proceed when shipping a gun is:
1.) Request "first three and last five" for the receiving FFL
2.) Verify the license on EZ Check
3.) Ship gun
4.) Profit

It's really quite simple. I don't know why people have to make it complicated.

BTW, I was an FFL for eight year. I did transfers all the time. And, yes, I gladly supplied copies of my FFL to anyone with a reason to have it. If you were party to a transfer, I would hand you a paper copy, e-mail a copy, fax a copy, whatever. It never bothered me as I had a clearly marked File Copy version ready to go. It wasn't an issue. But I understand why some FFL's are reluctant.

Bottom line, the receiving dealer has every right to protect the integrity of his license. I think it's silly since all the relevant information (including license number) is public information and published online at the ATF site, but whatever. His shop, his rules . . .

THe first three and last five, along with the EZ Check are all any unlicensed person needs or is entitled to. Everybody needs to just chill and use the system as its intended.

 

[alwaysoutdoors]

“If it ain't broke, don’t fix it”

 

[2152hq]

Quite a few FFL's I know demand a hard copy of the other guys FFL.,,that original signiture in ink thing. A couple even want the signiture to be in Red Ink.
They won't do the Email or FAX copy thing.
So it's their rule,,lots of 'it's my business, it's my rule' stuff in place in the FFL world.

You just have to find someone that'll work with you.

One thing many 01 FFL's will not do is any business w/an 03C&R FFL through the mail.
The excuse(?) here is that the 03FFL lic can't be run through EZ Check to see if it's valid.

...Many 01FFL's just simply won't do any business w/a C&R FFL at all anytime.

I always looked at it as I do my best to verify and go from there.
Just like any other transfer,,if something doesn't seem right, the person, paperwork, anything,,you have the option of not doing the transfer.

 

[505Gibbs]

BATFE EZCheck will give you the license expiration date

BATFE EZcheck

The words 'expiration date are on the form' BUT no date prints out and the woman at ATF verified that!

 

[cherrypointmarine]

My FFL likes to deal directly with the other FFL . That way there are no copies floating around . If I am buying , I just ask for the email and phone# of their FFL and give it to mine . If I'm selling , just the opposite .

 

[Muss Muggins]

I buy guns all the time with a photo or fax of my LGS’s FFL. Had ‘em shipped from major distributors on a fax, email, or even text message copy. I’ve copies of my two favorite FFL’s on my phone right now. Nobody seems to care if it’s original ink or not . . .

Without a hard copy of a newly signed (original ink) FFL there is no sale.

 

[pawngal]

I do a lot in incoming transfers, I just email or fax the FFL marked File copy to the shipping dealer. Never been a problem.
I won't hand out any paper copies of my FFL.
I keep a paper copy in my purse in case I find something interesting in my travels.

 

[e3mrk]

I never had a problem, My FFL would just FAX a copy of his license to the FFL on the other end.

 

[oneounceload]

Without a hard copy of a newly signed (original ink) FFL there is no sale.

That was great about 1980; they now have these things called "computers" - you might want to check one out - oh WAIT - you're on the internet - why is that? Why aren't you relying on the old paper Shotgun News for your deals?

 

[Bladeswitcher]

Quite a few FFL's I know demand a hard copy of the other guys FFL.,,that original signiture in ink thing. A couple even want the signiture to be in Red Ink.
They won't do the Email or FAX copy thing.
So it's their rule,,lots of 'it's my business, it's my rule' stuff in place in the FFL world . . .

A lot of FFLs are stupid . . . or stubborn . . . or cop a "God" complex. THe ATF has stated in writing numerous times that faxes and e-mails of FFL copies are fine. But some folks just don't get the hint.

In their defense, it's not like the ATF does a good job keeping FFLs informed. Sure, they issue newsletters, advisories, rulings, etc. but there is no system of getting them to the FFLs. Unless you subscribe to their electronic newsletter, you'd never know anything changed. Even that is spotty. You certainly don't receive every update or ruling. And their website? Forget about it. Just TRY to find something you know you've seen before. Good luck with that.

One thing many 01 FFL's will not do is any business w/an 03C&R FFL through the mail.
The excuse(?) here is that the 03FFL lic can't be run through EZ Check to see if it's valid.

...Many 01FFL's just simply won't do any business w/a C&R FFL at all anytime.

I always looked at it as I do my best to verify and go from there.
Just like any other transfer,,if something doesn't seem right, the person, paperwork, anything,,you have the option of not doing the transfer.

Yeah, I don't get what the problem is . . . assuming the gun is clearly a C&R. I think some Type 01 FFL's just resent Type 03 licenses. THey don't consider them real licenses (they're not real "dealer's" licenses) so they get all huffy about them.

I can see it when there's a question about the age of the gun -- can you trust the barrel code on a Remington 870 shotgun? -- but on some gun that hasn't been made for more than 50 years, why is it an issue?

You log out the disposition to the C&R license holder, you put down their license number in your log. End of story. Do they think the ATF inspector is going to give them grief for following the law? Not likely.

In fact, ATF inspectors rarely even look at closed dispositions. If the gun is gone and logged out they don't really pay any attention. They spend most of their time counting guns and looking at 4473 forms. With a C&R sale, there is no 4473. A closed entry in the A&D log book that is assigned to an FFL number raises no red flags at all.

 

[alwaysoutdoors]

This is my main gripe with a buyer not sending their FFL license copy along with payment. I got paid and the buyer still has not sent their FFL copy. I’ve done what I can but still feel a little like I haven’t delivered the “goods” . The gun has been sitting at my FFL ten days waiting for the buyers’ FFL copy . If I deliver a copy of the FFL myself , I KNOW it is done on my end as far as preparing to ship.

I still have not heard a valid reason why a file copy of the FFL license should not be sent along with payment. It appears to be fear mongering to me . “Don’t send your license out, the boogie man may get a hold of it!!”