Serial Number on Transfer Documents

[Elroy]

Recently made a purchase on a pre-model Smith at a LGS. On the transfer documents the serial number is recorded as the assembly number inside the crane

What are the potential liabilities / benefits of such an error that the gun store refuses to correct??

Comments please

 

[vytoland]

i also had this problem with a S&W revolver i purchased a few years ago. the seller, in another state, recorded the wrong serial number. i contacted them twice and ask for a correction. they kept sending documenatation with the same incorrect serial number. i just forgot about it and moved on.

more than likely the correct serial number to the firearm i have will never be recorded.

 

[DeathGrip]

more than likely the correct serial number to the firearm i have will never be recorded.

I hope so. If I read correct, Your name is also connected to this sale.

 

[gunfish]

It bugs me that these legal details have the potential to affect serious points of law and yet are generated at random by simple error. I have had more than one conversation with dealers with subject being the serial mumber. My opinion did not always prevail. It bugs me for a while and then I forget about it.

 

[LVSteve]

Mention this to the milsurp rifle crowd and they'll just laugh. I dread to think how many K98Ks have been recorded as having the serial number DOT 4 or DOU 43. Mosin Nagants are the worst with Cyrillic letters being transliterated incorrectly or ignored altogether. Then the Finns decided to put the Civil Guard region number on a lot of their rifles so even more rifles appear to have the same serial.

 

[Alpo]

It is the responsibility of the FFL to record the information correctly. Not my reposibility. His.

If he puts it down wrong, I am neither legally, ethically nor morally obligated to correct him. If I do notice it happening, and I tell him, "That's not the serial number", and he ignores me and continues with what he's doing, I just shrug my shoulders and go on with life.

 

[BaldEagle1313]

It is the responsibility of the FFL to record the information correctly. Not my reposibility. His.

If he puts it down wrong, I am neither legally, ethically nor morally obligated to correct him. If I do notice it happening, and I tell him, "That's not the serial number", and he ignores me and continues with what he's doing, I just shrug my shoulders and go on with life.

That may be true, but a little "C.Y.A." goes a long way. I'd make sure that I documented when I called, who I called, what they said, and what they did (or did not) do about it when I brought the error to their attention.

 

[2152hq]

Make note of the real ser# on the receipt,,the date & times you contacted the FFL in an attempt to clear up the log problem and initial & date it.
Keep receipt in a safe place.
Like BaldEagle1313 says,,a bit of CYA goes a long way.

Unless there's some State law regarding registration by ser# which I doubt, then your only concern may be the one in a gazillion chance the gun is already listed as stolen in NCIC by the real ser#.

If that, and for any reason it's (real)# is run by LE in the future,,you'll be relieved of possession the gun of course. But you'll have a reason for why it's in your possession in the first place and not be a suspect.
You're 'ammended receipt' is going to help to explain to LE that you really really did buy it from a LGS,,they just didn't put the right ser# down. Could be years from now.
The LGS records are forever going to list it by the assembly # and no one will ever find it in their records by the real ser#. They will by assembly #.

It's a real long shot at happening, probably a totally mute point,,but only takes a minute to note,,then don't worry about it. You did what you could.

The FFL should know better and be open to correcting clerical mistakes in paperwork.
That's where most violations come from in ATF compliance checks.

 

[Alpo]

What of my A. needs C.ed?

I buy a gun. I fill out the first page of the 4473. There is nothing about the gun on that page.

The dealer fills out the rest. He puts down make, model, type, caliber and serial number. Not me. I don't see that page. I have nothing to do with that page. If he writes down that I bought a Colt Super Blackhawk in 22 Magnum, how is that my problem? Why would I need to C my A?

 

[Rule3]

It seems there would be no record then of that actual gun being sold to you so why worry?

I always get a sales receipt, one time there was a honest mistake on my receipt with a letter like B that should be a 8 or something. I corrected it and called my LGS and he checked and corrected it on his end. Problem solved.

As mentioned it is the FFL responsibility. When they get an audit and that is found then it's their problem. If you call them and they don't fix it then that's all you can do.

Take a picture of the gun (serial) number along with your receipt. Done.

 

[s&wchad]

The dealers response is totally unacceptable. If it was me, I'd phone him again and tell him my next call will be to the local BATFE office if he doesn't correct his mistake.

What if the correct serial number is in LEIN as stolen?

 

[CBA44]

The dealers response is totally unacceptable. If it was me, I'd phone him again and tell him my next call will be to the local BATFE office if he doesn't correct his mistake.

What if the correct serial number is in LEIN as stolen?

Exactly!

These guys with their "Aint my problem" attitude will have a huge wake up call when they get caught holding a gun used in a murder or armed robbery and can't explain where they got it from....

"Well, the gun store sold it to me. Yeah, the one that wrote down the number wrong. Aint MY responsibility, just go find the guy who sold it to me 30 years ago and ask him! He'll tell ya!"

Lemme know how that works out for ya.

 

[H Richard]

I have met a few FFL's that have no clue where to find the "correct" S/N on an older S&W. I always try and explain it to them, but most of them don't care. One told me "It's a number on the gun, it's good enough". I don't buy from him.

 

[rburg]

The OP is in Kentucky. We generally don't even want paper on our guns. Yes, I would take the gun back in, on a day when someone different and in authority was on hand. And I'd very gently explain to him there was a screw up on the transaction. Its not a problem for me, but when the BATFE comes in and wants to know what the disposition was of a gun he booked in, and they can't find it, maybe he'd prefer the friendly tip. If not, its all OK.

There once was a newspaper article I read where some poor jerk got charged with owning an unregistered handgun here in Kentucky. Clearly just another situation where the author was full of what he thought he knew. We don't have any provision or way to register a gun here. If someone comes up with one, we'll probably lynch him. At least at the voting booth if not physically.

Notice in all this its usually a clerk that makes these kinds of mistakes, not the shop owner. But if he's that dull, it would just be a friendly thing to do to educate him. None of this is going to get you any friendly treatment, probably the opposite. But at least you know you did right and the fool lives in the darkness.

 

[jaykellogg]

We don't have any provision or way to register a gun here. If someone comes up with one, we'll probably lynch him. At least at the voting booth if not physically.

When I lived in PA, I was under the impression there was no law against ftf sales of handguns. Later I found that was wrong. All Handgun sales are "supposed to" go through a dealer. There were several times I sold a gun and the buyer wanted the sale recorded, so I took it to an FFL. Many folks buying used would prefer to not have any paperwork on the sale or at minimum a private bill of sale.

If I got a handgun with the incorrect number recorded as the serial number and the seller didn't care to correct it, I would record the correct number myself, date it and keep the reciept. An alternate would be to have another FFL write it up as if he sold it to you.

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

What really fries my banana is when the police seize a gun and the Judge will only release it with written proof of ownership even though Louisiana has absolutely no stature whatsoever mandating that one keep such documents. Ownership of non titled property is presumed to be with he who possesses it-ie drugs, so why should it be different when you takl about a gun that is not entered as stolen? Judges just do not want guns out there. Period.

 

[Elroy]

I doubt seriously that the gun in question has ever been stolen. This is reputable, long establish store. Doubt they would be willing to jeopardize their business conducting such shady deals.

Here is what concerns me. Buy the gun and the assembly number goes on record. I would think that serial numbers on a particular frame/caliber combination would be unique. BUT, what happens if that assembly number from a "clean" weapon matches the serial number of a weapon used in a crime or in deed has been reported as stolen.

Sure it's long odds but there's potential for big trouble.

So what does one say to convince someone in the business they made a mistake?? They won't take the gun back. All I want is the paper work correct with out pissing in their cereal.

 

[H Richard]

If a FFL records the assembly # in his log book, and then sells it under that same #, it's my opinion the BATFE would never know. I doubt the BATFE agent that inspects the books, knows what S/N for every given mfg. looks like.

 

[Alpo]

Only problem I see is if the cops find SN ABC123 at a crime scene, and call Smith, who says they shipped it to Davidsons, who say they shipped it to Joe's Gun Shop, but Joe has no record of it because he listed it by the assembly number, in his bound book, Joe's in trouble.

And it still ain't my problem.

 

[A10]

Only problem I see is if the cops find SN ABC123 at a crime scene, and call Smith, who says they shipped it to Davidsons, who say they shipped it to Joe's Gun Shop, but Joe has no record of it because he listed it by the assembly number, in his bound book, Joe's in trouble.

And it still ain't my problem.

And, they'd have to call Roy Jinks for the information, since it has been a LOOOOOONG time since the assembly numbers have been inside the crane.......

 

[Elroy]

Picked up the firearm today and as the transaction was closing out I informed them a second time the number cited on the receipt was not the serial number.

Sure enough the look that clown gave me was priceless. What the hell are you talking about??

Pointed out the the true serial number on was always on the butt but you had to remove the target stocks to see it. Also pointed out this pre-model example had the serial number on the cylinder, the barrel, the ejector face and the back side of the crane. Sure enough, you'd a thought I pissed down his leg.

He grabbed the gun and took off for the back office. They brought the weapon back about 10 minutes later and stated the assembly number was on their books as the serial number. Fine, what ever.........

Took possession the 2nd time and promptly left the store. Must have been a dozen dirty looks cast in my direction.

You'd think someone in the business would know better. You can bet they're experts though.......just ask them, they'll tell ya all about their vast knowledge.

 

[RightArm]

On my last purchase, the LGS didn't write the serial no. and their was no indication on the place I purchased it. It is my understanding that I need a reciept of the gun in question for insurance or in case of confiscation. I made him correct the reciept. He was not happy. He felt, and rightly so, that I was telling him he made a mistake. I don't care. It's my gun and I want a receipt saying so.
I tell them they're wrong all the time, based on knowledge I've gleaned from this forum and the 1911 forum. I'll keep buying from them if they keep giving me good prices. Meanwhile, they can all just keep shooting their Tauruses.

 

[Alpo]

Wouldn't that be "shooting their Tauri"?

 

[Teddydog]

Speaking of serial numbers... A shop owner that I know is also a pretty regular Safari hunter. He wanted to take a Martini Henry to South Africa to hunt big game "old style". On the import tags or documents, a serial number was REQUIRED, but that old M-H didn't have one. So he used the big number on the side of the receiver and took Serial Number 1876 hunting with him. : )

Rob

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

I doubt seriously that the gun in question has ever been stolen. This is reputable, long establish store. Doubt they would be willing to jeopardize their business conducting such shady deals.

Here is what concerns me. Buy the gun and the assembly number goes on record. I would think that serial numbers on a particular frame/caliber combination would be unique. BUT, what happens if that assembly number from a "clean" weapon matches the serial number of a weapon used in a crime or in deed has been reported as stolen.

Sure it's long odds but there's potential for big trouble.

So what does one say to convince someone in the business they made a mistake?? They won't take the gun back. All I want is the paper work correct with out pissing in their cereal.

The odds that the assembly number matches ANY serial number of a similar gun are low, but that they match the serial number of a stolen gun are minuscule. The odds are much higher, although still small, that the gun IS a stolen gun, and it has nothing to do with a shady deal on the part of the store. If they can't even get a serial number right, and, furthermore, have an attitude about their ignorance, why would you think that they somehow research every gun they take in to determine whether it has ever been stolen? How do you think they would do this?

Why do you not want to "piss in their cereal?" They don't mind pissing in yours.