Severe leading

Some makers carry 200 gr lswc or rnfp in 454. I get mine from cheycast.com

So maybe if I find the .452 bullets too small to create a gas seal in the cylinder..I could buy .454 bullets and use a bullet swag in my press to size them to where they need to be, possibly .453 or something. Wont know until I get home and check the cylinder.
 
Just another thought. What about gas checks? If cylinder throat blow by is occuring would adding gas checks to my load solve this?
 
Just another thought. What about gas checks? If cylinder throat blow by is occuring would adding gas checks to my load solve this?

only some.
youd have an even harder base that will be protected, but wont bump up, thus allowing more blowby.

What powder are you using anyhow?
some work with cast lead better than others
 
I have never met a factory 625-8 with oversized chambers, usually they are grossly undersized and out of round. Are we sure the bullets are indeed 0.452?
 
Make sure you clean between lead and jacketed shooting.

The two metals love to stick together. Like liquors, I don't mix my lights and darks. Severe leading is something I've not experienced in any type .45 ACP, but have had it when mixing higher velocity rounds.

Kroil brand oil will remove lead like nobody's business. Apply a good dose and let it sit in the barrel at least a half hour, then clean as usual. You'll be amazed at how the lead turns loose.
 
I have 625-6 I have always got leading at the cone. Try hard and soft lead sized for .450 to 452. Had a guy look at the rifling he thinks it was cut for jacked bullets. The rifling grooves are real light. someday i will find it a new home
 
Which version of the 625-8 do you have? I'll bet it's the 625 JM. As for how I knew that, it's pretty simple, the JM features an ECM rifled barrel and the PC version has cut rifling. I tried just 50 rounds of Blaser LRN 38 spl in my model 620, which also features an ECM barrel, and it took 12-14 hours of scrubbing to get the lead out of the barrel. As I found out the ECM barrels are EXTREMELY particular about the lube used with a lead bullet. As a result I only shoot jacketed or plated bullets in my revolvers with ECM barrels. BTW, those revolvers are my 610-3, 620, and 625 JM.

Now for some good news that should ease your mind. That is that Federal Champion 45 ACP ammunition uses plated bullets. I know that for a fact because I broke down a couple of rounds that had primers installed sideways to recycle the casings. It was a bit of a surprise when I found the bullets were not actually FMJ as marketed but are instead plated. Now the good news about this, if you haven't shot any Federal Champion in your 625 I can tell you that I've shot close to 1500 rounds in my 625 JM and the barrel didn't have any leading issues at all. Since I started reloading using Berry's and HSM plated bullets I haven't tried any in the 625 yet but have run about 300 through my 610 with not a bit of leading. For an absolute fact I can assure you that plated bullets will not present a leading issue in a S&W ECM barrel as long as they are properly crimped.

BTW, I only use a 0.002 to 0.003 inch taper crimp on my ammo. Testing with a bullet hammer has shown that bullet pull due to recoil isn't an issue with this much crimp because it takes a pretty good whack to get the bullet to move. Setback in a semi is also not a concern, testing the 40 in my Sig P239 and the 45 ACP in my Ruger SR1911 shows that it takes 8 or more rechambering cycles to set the bullet back more than 0.010 inch. Quite simply you really don't need a lot of crimp to lock the bullet in well enough for range use. Note that measurement is taken measuring the diameter at the edge of the casing and checked against the diameter about 3/16 inch back over the bullet, so the total taper is the larger diameter minus the smaller diameter.

As for the ammo you already have loaded, I would suggest using them in a revolver or semi that has a barrel with traditional cut rifling. Otherwise you'll be facing trying to lube the bullets externally sort of like what we see on 22LR ammo and I don't think that will work very well.

PS, the way to spot an ECM barrel is to take a close look at the rifling. If you find there aren't any sharp edges and it looks like it been over-polished and worn out it's an ECM machined barrel. The actual process is identified as Electro Chemical Machining by S&W and technically it's a variant of Electic Discharge Machining or EDM.

If you find your rifling has good sharp edges at the lands and grooves then it's most likely that you have some type of functional flaw in your revolver. Personally I would suspect a cylinder with UNDERSIZE throats and would use a pin gage to check the diameter. IMO you would like to see a 0.452 Minus gage just barely pass and not see anything under 0.451 inch that won't go in. I'll also tell you NOT to try checking your throats with calipers, it's not accurate enough. You should either use pin gages or ID Micrometers.
 
only some.
youd have an even harder base that will be protected, but wont bump up, thus allowing more blowby.

What powder are you using anyhow?
some work with cast lead better than others

I suppose it would. I am using 4.2 grains of IMR 700x.
 
You used a dremel in the barrel?

Sure did. Got a long reach wire wheel and cleaned the hell out of it. Basically I had to use Lead Remover and the wheel. The LR only helped some, but the caked stuff I had to use the friction from the wheel to basically melt the lead.
 
You loaded .452 bullets. Now pull a couple of bullets and see if they are still .452. If they are smaller you have over taper crimped and swaged the bullet and case to much. Not hard to do. hope you didn't do it to all of them. You could also check the pulled in the cylinder with the new unloaded to see the difference.. Let us know what the pulled measure.
Mike
 
scooter Thats the kind of barrel i have in my 625 thank you noing that
 
Sure did. Got a long reach wire wheel and cleaned the hell out of it. Basically I had to use Lead Remover and the wheel. The LR only helped some, but the caked stuff I had to use the friction from the wheel to basically melt the lead.

A STEEL or Brass/Bronze wheel? Is the leading WORSE since this cleaning??

90% of issues in auto's or revolvers with leading are related to bullet FIT more than anything else. One must of course use a proper alloy and lube, but SIZING seems to be THE biggest issue with extreme leading.

My pair of 1911's both like .452" slugs more than .451" slugs. I have shot several hundreds of rds of practice, then Matches and after hundreds of rds the leading is negligible.

Yet with .451" slugs it's a VERY different story. Doesn't matter if my alloys are hard or softer...I get leading.

Measure your cylinder throats. I'm interested to hear the results.

FN in MT
 
Which version of the 625-8 do you have? I'll bet it's the 625 JM. As for how I knew that, it's pretty simple, the JM features an ECM rifled barrel and the PC version has cut rifling. I tried just 50 rounds of Blaser LRN 38 spl in my model 620, which also features an ECM barrel, and it took 12-14 hours of scrubbing to get the lead out of the barrel. As I found out the ECM barrels are EXTREMELY particular about the lube used with a lead bullet. As a result I only shoot jacketed or plated bullets in my revolvers with ECM barrels. BTW, those revolvers are my 610-3, 620, and 625 JM.

Now for some good news that should ease your mind. That is that Federal Champion 45 ACP ammunition uses plated bullets. I know that for a fact because I broke down a couple of rounds that had primers installed sideways to recycle the casings. It was a bit of a surprise when I found the bullets were not actually FMJ as marketed but are instead plated. Now the good news about this, if you haven't shot any Federal Champion in your 625 I can tell you that I've shot close to 1500 rounds in my 625 JM and the barrel didn't have any leading issues at all. Since I started reloading using Berry's and HSM plated bullets I haven't tried any in the 625 yet but have run about 300 through my 610 with not a bit of leading. For an absolute fact I can assure you that plated bullets will not present a leading issue in a S&W ECM barrel as long as they are properly crimped.

BTW, I only use a 0.002 to 0.003 inch taper crimp on my ammo. Testing with a bullet hammer has shown that bullet pull due to recoil isn't an issue with this much crimp because it takes a pretty good whack to get the bullet to move. Setback in a semi is also not a concern, testing the 40 in my Sig P239 and the 45 ACP in my Ruger SR1911 shows that it takes 8 or more rechambering cycles to set the bullet back more than 0.010 inch. Quite simply you really don't need a lot of crimp to lock the bullet in well enough for range use. Note that measurement is taken measuring the diameter at the edge of the casing and checked against the diameter about 3/16 inch back over the bullet, so the total taper is the larger diameter minus the smaller diameter.

As for the ammo you already have loaded, I would suggest using them in a revolver or semi that has a barrel with traditional cut rifling. Otherwise you'll be facing trying to lube the bullets externally sort of like what we see on 22LR ammo and I don't think that will work very well.

PS, the way to spot an ECM barrel is to take a close look at the rifling. If you find there aren't any sharp edges and it looks like it been over-polished and worn out it's an ECM machined barrel. The actual process is identified as Electro Chemical Machining by S&W and technically it's a variant of Electic Discharge Machining or EDM.

If you find your rifling has good sharp edges at the lands and grooves then it's most likely that you have some type of functional flaw in your revolver. Personally I would suspect a cylinder with UNDERSIZE throats and would use a pin gage to check the diameter. IMO you would like to see a 0.452 Minus gage just barely pass and not see anything under 0.451 inch that won't go in. I'll also tell you NOT to try checking your throats with calipers, it's not accurate enough. You should either use pin gages or ID Micrometers.

Damn thats a lot of info, but good info. I do not have a JM. I have a 625-8 with a 4 inch barrel and by your description a ECM barrel. I tried putting a bullet in the cylinder ( bare bullet) and it wont even come close to going through. Tried the barrel too. .452 is clearly oversized and explains my leading problem in the cylinder and forcing cone, as it is shaving the sides off. This is the only 45 I own, so using my 2k bullets in another gun isnt a option. Breaking them all down and sizing the bullets in a swag is though. Damn thats going to be a lot of work. I will switch to plated or jacket bullets from now on.
 
Well I just measured the new unloaded bullets and they are .452 on the dot. Tomorrow I will push one through the cylinder and measure it. Then I will slug the barrel with one and measure it.
 
Are you sure this is lead in the forcing cone?

Have you checked the forcing cone to see if it is rough or smooth?

I have a 25-9 .45 Colt which would built up a lot of carbon at the beginning of the forcing cone. The cone was poorly finished almost looked as if a tap had been threaded into the back.

I had a smith do an eleven degree cut and polish to smooth it up.

This looks better and cleans easier than the formerly rough cone.
However it still carbons up leaving hard chunks of material that is very hard to brush out. There has never been lead in the cone or barrel just carbon.

I finally made a tool to remove the carbon with just two or three twists of a cleaning rod.

This is much easier and solved my problem. See if this is a carbon problem before giving up on the bullets. Check to see if the cone is smooth.

If you want to know about the tool just ask.

Bruce
 
Try getting all the copper out of your barrel. It might involve several evenings of running patches through and letting the bore stay wet until your I suspect that your bullets are eroding from a powder blowby and plating your bore with lead. Softer bullets can expand to fit your bore as has been explained. Many gunsmiths love dremel tools as they give them plenty of business in replacing parts.
 
I don't think that oversize bullets have anything to do with your leading, they'll get swaged down in the throats and barrel. People have been shooting 0.452 inch bullets in 45 caliber handguns for well over 100 years now and the 0.452 Berry's plated bullets I've used have functioned perfectly in my 625 and SR1911. The problem your dealing with is the interplay between the current lube and your ECM barrel. As I discovered this type of barrel is VERY sensitive to lube when using unplated bullets. Unfortunately I can't recomend a suitable lube but if you re-read some of the posts suggesting different lubes you may find a solution.

Since you have 2000 assembled rounds I would suggest that you list out the various lubricants that have been suggested and do a bit of testing using 20 or 30 round test lots. Get your barrel well cleaned out then fire a small test lot lubricated with a particular lube and then test for leading by running a solvent wetted patch down the barrel on a cleaning jag. If you have leading you'll find out pretty quickly by the extra drag and leading from just 20 or 30 rounds should be fairly easy to clean up. Once you find a lube that prevents leading in a small test try a larger test lot and see how it does then. Then once you find a good lube you can then use that with all that ammo your loaded up. Note, I suspect you may find that magic lube is either smoky or dirty to shoot. If so, ask yourself which is worse, a dirty pistol or a severely leaded up barrel.

BTW, Lead Away cleaning patches on a jag can help with cleaning the barrel. A more aggressive and cheap solvent to use with a bronze bore bush to dissolve the lead can also be made up with a 50/50 mix of white vinegar and peroxide. However the byproducts are toxic and can in theory ba absorbed through the skin so you'll want latex or vinyl gloves if you use this mix.
 

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