Shooting without hearing protection?

[eb2good]

First off, hi all, this is my first post on the forums.

Secondly, I 100% understand to use hearing protection at all costs besides life or death situations. However, here is my question:

I understand that a 9mm puts out almost 160db enough to instantly cause damage to ones ears. However, there are so many cops, soldiers, etc. that each and every day are involved in a shooting. Some of them have been in multiple shootings. How is it that they seem to be fine and not deaf in the aftermath interviews and such?

Thanks!

 

[Rule3]

Most hearing loss or damage is caused by prolonged exposure to loud noise. Of course some extremely loud noises can cause instant damage. A few shots outside are certainly less than the same shots in an enclosed space. Everyone's tolerance is different. Many old rock band members or audiences have hearing loss.

 

[OK Hog Shooter]

Welcome to the forum from central Oklahoma. You'll find a lot of great information and members willing to share their knowledge, wit and wisdom here. As for wearing hearing protection, huh? What'd ya say? I wear custom molded ear plugs and muffs when shooting at an indoor range and muffs when target practicing at the farm. At my age l gotta protect what little hearing I have left. The local indoor ranges l've been to require hearing and eye protection; there's some method to their madness!

Blessings,
Hog

 

[arjay]

My experience is that it's cumulative.I've always worn hearing protection while shooting,but I've spent my working life around power tools and I am going deaf.Protect your hearing.

 

[eb2good]

Welcome to the forum from central Oklahoma. You'll find a lot of great information and members willing to share their knowledge, wit and wisdom here. As for wearing hearing protection, huh? What'd ya say? I wear custom molded ear plugs and muffs when shooting at an indoor range and muffs when target practicing at the farm. At my age l gotta protect what little hearing I have left. The local indoor ranges l've been to require hearing and eye protection; there's some method to their madness!

Blessings,
Hog

My experience is that it's cumulative.I've always worn hearing protection while shooting,but I've spent my working life around power tools and I am going deaf.Protect your hearing.

Hey, thanks for the reply. Could you possibly comment on my question in the bold, however? I was curious how police, military etc haven't lost their hearing. While all these forums talk about 1 shot from a 9mm without protection will do permanent damage, ringing ears, headache, and much more... so how do the police at shootouts get away with it?

 

[arjay]

Most likely they will become hard of hearing as they age.I did a fair amount of hunting when I was younger,most of it rimfire,and we didn't wear hearing protection.It all adds up.

 

[fat tom]

While all these forums talk about 1 shot from a 9mm without protection will do permanent damage, ringing ears, headache, and much more...

Simply not true as to permanent damage. Don't know which forums are espousing this belief,but they are wrong.
f.t.

 

[doublesharp]

I damaged mine young and have added to it to the point of constant cricket chirp type ringing. Dead quiet is when I notice it most and it sucks to know I'll never experience total silence again but I've pretty well learned to live with it. I'd sure love to have a do over though - I'd be much, much more careful and protective of my hearing. I bought a big container of the foam disposable ear plugs and I roll them tight while using power equipment and then wear muffs over them when I shoot.

 

[eb2good]

Simply not true as to permanent damage. Don't know which forums are espousing this belief,but they are wrong.
f.t.

well a few different places were mentioning it. Several guys talked about firing one at the range without ear protection and becoming disoriented after just 1 shot. One guy said he shot a .357 and his ears rang for the next 24 hours. To which an audiologist replied a few messages later saying anytime your ears ring you have done official damage to the nerves in your ear and have in fact done permanent hearing damage. Not arguing against you, just telling you what I had read originally and why it prompted me to ask this question. Thanks!

 

[mwtdvm]

I didn't wear hearing protection in my youth

I remember the ringing in my ears for about a week afterwards. Now it's constant. Tinnitus and Also HF hearing loss. Old artillerymen are notorious for being deaf. DUH!
It is cumulative. The cochlear cells get their little filaments fractured IIRC and they don't grow back. Being hard of hearing can have it's advantages. You can ignore some people that need to be ignored but I would rather be able to hear Bambi or that pesky Rufous-sided Towhee rustling in the leaves than the constant high pitched whine... Growing old ain't for sissies!
What did you say?

 

[jkc]

I remember the ringing in my ears for about a week afterwards. Now it's constant. Tinnitus and Also HF hearing loss. Old artillerymen are notorious for being deaf. DUH!
It is cumulative. The cochlear cells get their little filaments fractured IIRC and they don't grow back. Being hard of hearing can have it's advantages. You can ignore some people that need to be ignored but I would rather be able to hear Bambi or that pesky Rufous-sided Towhee rustling in the leaves than the constant high pitched whine... Growing old ain't for sissies!
What did you say?

Uh, ornithologists are no longer calling what we once knew as the rufous-sided Towhee by that name, rather, now, as the "spotted Towhee" --- I guess your weren't, uh, listening... But they sure can drive you nuts on a deer stand...

 

[BlueOvalBandit]

Here's my experience, one of my friends had an ND with a browning hipower in a small room 15x15(long story), we were standing shoulder to shoulder and my ear was about 3 feet from the ejection port. Thankfully he only killed his new $3k bed. The ringing didn't stop for a little over 3 days, but there was no permanent damage as I had my ears examined during DODMERB and I surprised the nurse being the only person she has examined who could hear all the tones(not so sure now).

I don't believe 1 or 2 shots will do much damage, prolonged exposure will, and it will sneak up on you. I will tell you those 3 days of ringing sucked... I can't imagine living with that 24h a day, 7 days a week.

 

[HELLSING]

I have a S&W 15 Sport and a Palmetto State Armory M4. I only use the little orange plugs you stuff in your ear and when I shoot my M4, it sounds like a cannon. I shot about 10 rounds through the M4 last time I was at the range and that's all my ears could handle before I switched to the .22 for the day. I need to go buy some good quality ear protection because these cheap orange things don't cut it.

 

[LVSteve]

At least one indoor range here will not let you shoot with just plugs. You have to have muffs, too. Considering they everything up to and including S&W 500s and full-auto ARs and MP5s, that's fine with me.

Loosed one on an outdoor rifle range without my muffs once and it REALLY got my attention. 8x57 Mauser will do that.

 

[mwtdvm]

Thanks for the update!

Uh, ornithologists are no longer calling what we once knew as the rufous-sided Towhee by that name, rather, now, as the "spotted Towhee" --- I guess your weren't, uh, listening... But they sure can drive you nuts on a deer stand...

Would like to have blasted many of them in the 60's and 70's.

They do not seem to be as many of the pesky wrascals as there once were. As an insectivore, are they a collateral casualty of agricultural spraying? Or God Forbid.. Global Warming!

 

[5-Shot]

I shot a lot through my indestructible 20's without hearing protection. My hearing remained outstanding through my 40's. Now I'm nearly deaf in my right ear and hear no high frequency sounds in either ear. It shows up over time.

Ed

 

[CajunBass]

The fact that damage is done, doesn't mean you're deaf. It means your hearing has been damaged. And yes, one shot "damages" it. It may not be much, but it's a little and it doesn't "get better." It builds. A little here, a little there, some more over here, and eventually you've got a constant ringing in your ears...like I've got right now.

And it's not just shooting. I did some shooting without hearing protection when I was young, but not a lot. What I did do, was (1) drove soft/open top Jeeps a lot. The constant flapping, and flopping of the top, and of the wind rushing over my ears was something I never considered. No more than I did the rush of the wind, and the roar of a 150 HP outboard motor on my bass boat. While not as loud of a gunfire, and for years I never fired a gun at all, that near constant noise finally took it's toll.

How do cops and soldiers deal with it? I can't speak for cops, but most soldiers I know, at least the ones who did a lot of shooting/getting shot at, say things "huh?" "What'dyasay?" a lot.

 

[pownal55]

When I was in my late teens and early twenties my unprotected hearing was subject to jackhammers, thousands of 22 rimfire rounds along with various other loud noises.
40 yrs later I am the victim of constant ringing in my ears 24/7. I can't be certain the cause but none of my friends or family who were more careful do not have this problem.

 

[Pointshoot]

I usually wear hearing protection when hunting or just shooting. One time, while goose hunting, the seal on my electronic muffs wasn't quite right because a stocking cap I was wearing interfered with them. I didn't notice. One of my hunting buddies swung & fired his gun and there was an immediate sharp pain in my ears. For the rest of the day and the next one, it felt like I had cotton stuffed in them. I went to the hearing doc that following week and they tested me. I experienced some high frequency hearing loss.
I asked the doc why my buddies seemed to do o.k. when they didnt wear hearing protection at all. He explained that it all would depend on the angle at which they shot and how the sound traveled. (The sound carried away from the guy who was shooting, but toward my position.) Also, everyone is different in terms of how sensitive they are to loud sounds. In any case, hearing damage is accumulative over time. If you talk to many old timer shooters (or especially guys who'd been in field artillery !) you'll find that a lot of them say 'Huh?' a lot.
As for cops or soldiers not seeming to be bothered by gun blast. There is a function in the ear that seems to shut down loud sounds somewhat, as perceived by the shooter. Also, when in grave danger a person focuses on the threat. So, they may not be aware of the shot when it happens. They call it 'sensory exclusion'. Despite this, there is still permanent damage being done to your hearing.

Bottomline - - - always wear hearing protection if at all possible. After my experience with some hearing loss, I always am very careful now to wear protection and make sure I have a good seal around my ears. In addition to my gun by the nightstand, I have a pair of electronic earmuffs which I would throw on immediately if I heard 'a bump in the night'.
There may be a fast developing situation where you just do not have enough time to put on hearing protection. Because of that, I prefer to carry lower pressure rounds that use a big bullet with not a lot of muzzle blast and fuss for my defensive handgun needs. My favorites include the 45 Colt & 44 Special in revolvers with 4" barrels. In a semi auto, the 45ACP operates at lower pressures than a lot of rounds.
I have handguns in other chamberings including 357 Mag, 44 Mag, 10mm, 454 Casull etc - - - but these higher pressure rounds are always used outdoors & for hunting rather than general personal self & home defense.

Its a good idea to try to take care of your hearing. Its a lot harder to hunt, and youre not likely to be as effective in a self defense situation . . . if youre deaf.

 

[H Richard]

Lost most of my hearing as a Jet Engine mech. We did have plugs &Muffs, but it wasn't enough. I haven't shot without ear protection since I was maybe 16. Hearing loss is cumulative. I know just what your "cricket" ringing is as I have it 24/7.

 

[Pointshoot]

I have a S&W 15 Sport and a Palmetto State Armory M4. I only use the little orange plugs you stuff in your ear and when I shoot my M4, it sounds like a cannon. I shot about 10 rounds through the M4 last time I was at the range and that's all my ears could handle before I switched to the .22 for the day. I need to go buy some good quality ear protection because these cheap orange things don't cut it.

Good idea.

When hunting I use electronic earmuffs. Depending on the type of hunting, shooting isn't constant. So this works fine for me
When I target shoot at a range or out in the boonies, I use earplugs plus regular earmuffs over that for maximum protection when shooting.
Its important that earplugs fit you well and seal the ear canal. Also earmuffs must seal around the ear. With earplugs, throw away those who don't seal the canal. Over time the ear cushions on ear muffs can age, crack, and allow sound to come through. Replace the cushions or replace the muffs when this happens.


An older relative of mine likes to cut her large lawn on her riding lawnmower. (She doesnt let anyone else do it since she says it helps keep her active.) She already is a little hard of hearing. I got her a pair of earmuffs to wear. Its not just the very loud sounds like gunshots that can damage hearing over time.

 

[mjr]

Spotted Towhee

They do not seem to be as many of the pesky wrascals as there once were. As an insectivore, are they a collateral casualty of agricultural spraying? Or God Forbid.. Global Warming!

More likely they're a casualty of urban sprawl and invasive pets. Spotted towhees nest on the ground or in bushes just a few feet above it. They are sitting ducks (so to speak) for outdoor housecats.

 

[s1mp13m4n]

I will just add this....my step dad was in Vietnam as well as my uncle, they both have hearing loss in their right ear from not having hearing protection while shooting. One was in the Army the other in the Navy. Now this was prolonged exposure not a one time thing. So for practice at the range use ear plugs. I still would want hearing protection for any time of use but I understand that in a defense situation that may not be possible. Please wear hearing protection every time you fire a gun. My family can not get their hearing back.

 

[captorquewrench]

To which an audiologist replied a few messages later saying anytime your ears ring you have done official damage to the nerves in your ear and have in fact done permanent hearing damage.

The audiologist, is not quite correct. You may have traumatized the nerves or overstimulated them. Ringing does not always mean permanent nerve damage. Usually yes. But not always.

As a musician and shooter I speak frequently and plainly and in-depth with my ENT who has saved my life on more than one occasion.

However...I am not condoning not using hearing protection. It is VITAL that we use it religiously.

 

[handejector]

Huh?
What did you say?

Protect what you have.
Many of us never thought about other things years ago- loud engines, machinery, hammering, factory noise, etc.
Take care.

 

[Engineer1911]

I have permanent hearing loss and the cricket ring constantly from ONE rifle shot with a long barreled .223 in the praire dog patch, 12 years ago. Now I wear ear plugs with any noisy activity: carpentry, power saw cutting, pounding nails in close quarters, etc. When at the range, indoor or outdoor, its foam plugs and muffs.

 

[USAF385]

I have an uncle with perminant hearing damage / loss after firing a .357 mag inside of barn. (Dang coyotes)

No point really. Just sharing a story. I think the human body is a weird thing and everyone will react differently to things. The only time I do not use hearing protection is when shooting .22 lr from a rifle.

 

[Straightshooter2]

Another one with ringing/cricket chirping 24/7/365. I started with Delta at age 18 before hearing protection was required but I would normally use earplugs. That was fine around Convair 440s, DC-6s and DC-7s but useless around DC-8s, DC-9s, Convair 880s and L-100s (C-130). Then four years in the Navy around A-7s and then back to Delta. Total of 22 years around jets before I moved to an "inside" job. Oh and one shot can do damage. The ringing is louder in my right ear and that's the one a .357 went off next to at a distance of about 2 feet. Never heard of using hearing protection when I was a kid and we were shooting shotguns and .22s. I remember Jeff Cooper once wrote something like Had we known we were going to live as long as we have, we would have taken better care of our hearing during all those battles.

CW

 

[walkin jack]

I was in the military in the early to mid 60s. My memory is not what it was but I can't remember seeing any type of hearing protection available at any time. I don't think I ever heard it said out loud but it was generally considered "sissy" to use hearing protection....even in Vietnam. At any rate I never had/used it.

Never bothered with it when I got back home and made occasional trips to the range.....Still just for sissies was my impression.

went to work for a Chemical Manufacturing company in the Mid 70s and they still hadn't gotten around to hearing conservation. I worked around a lot of noisy compressors and other machinery and the company never made hearing protection available. No one bothered bringing hearing protection from home.....Still for sissies was my impression.

Eventually the company (driven no doubt by OSHA) eventually developed a hearing conservation program and started providing several different kinds of hearing protection.

All this came around a little bit too late for me to get all the good out of it but I suppose that I'd be stone deaf if it hadn't happened when it did.

By now, after all my years of exposure to loud music, loud motorcycles, loud work environment and loud guns I'm pretty severely hearing impaired. My hearing aids are the kind that I have to wear behind my ears.

My advice to EVERYONE regardless of your hearing deficiency and especially if you have perfect hearing is to WEAR HEARING PROTECTION WHEN YOU ARE SHOOTING A GUN. It may take a while but you will eventually lose your hearing if you don't. Hearing aids help but they are not perfect. Nothing can replace natural hearing.

And this is a point I'd like to stress here. If you are disabled in any way, blind, crippled, amputee, in a wheel chair, whatever, people will be kind and helpful. The will be patient, respectful and understanding and treat you with respect.

BUT...

If you are hearing impaired, people will treat you like you are stupid. They don't like to repeat themselves and you will find yourself being excluded from conversations. Take it from me...protect your hearing. Being hearing impaired is miserable.

 

[BearBio]

OSHA, DOT and New York Safety have all published extensive studies. National Park Service did one on Grand Canyon flyovers and the effect on game. I've done numerous analysis of the impacts to wildlife from construction and Project noise.

Hearing damage is a function of frequency (Hz or mHz) AND loudness [dB(A)]. It is cumulative and synergistic (The total effect is greater than the sum of individual effects). In general, anything over about 85 dB(A) causes "some" permanent hearing loss. How much depends of "sharpness" (no real measurement), duration, attenuation (diminishing factors). It may not be noticeable, especially at first. Also, certain frequencies are lost first. I can sometimes hear and understand someone talking across a bar but not the person next to me. Depends on their voices and "pitch".

The surrounding surfaces also play a factor, as some absorb sound better. Generally, loudness decreases by 10 dB(A) for 1/2 the distance after about 5oo yards (noise 1000 yards away diminishes by50%@500 yards, 75% @ 250, 37.5% @125, etc). But that's across grass. Sand is a little less, sagebrush a little more, trees even more. Deeper sounds penetrate forests better than higher pitches, etc.

I first noticed it when I shot a Python under a corrugated tin roof.

Enough==it's just too complex. So, the short answer is: Yes there is some hearing damage. It accumulates over time. People vary (babies are more tolerant), there is some healing that occurs but it diminishes with age.