Short Barrel Shotgun

Pic #1:
Top-to-Bottom,
Ithaca 37, 20 ga w/ 18"+ Polychoke
Mossberg 590A1, 12 ga 20", Cylinder bore
Remington 870 (1950's Wingmaster), 12 ga, 18" Mossberg for Remington bbl, Cylinder bore
Remington 870 (Police Magnum), 12 ga, 20", Mississippi Transportation Department surplus ("The Chain Gang Special"), Cylinder bore

Pic #2
Remington 870 (Pre-Police Magnum Magnum), 12 ga, 18", Washington State Corrections Department surplus, Modified choke
 

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You can't put a full length stock on a Shockwave or a TAC14 without a stamp. They leave the factory as 'others' , (not AOW) , and if you put a stock on one it becomes an SBS. (designed to be fired from the shoulder, and under 18"bbl)
I'm not even sure that the ATF would let you stamp it, but somebody here will know.
Yes we know. The OP has the paperwork already. Hence the suggestions.
 
I'd certainly agree with you on a shotgun having a buttstock. Worthless without one, except in the minds of those who have watched too many movies.
I'd stop way short of saying worthless. If you blast away from the hip you're likely to miss your target. But when a pistol gripped shotgun is held properly and aimed it's as accurate as any other
 
I have to put in my two cents in regard shotgun sights. Shotguns are NOT hand-grenades!! They must be aimed, except at virtually contact distance, in order to be assured a hit of your target. Let's try this. Many of the shotguns being shown here are intended for home defense. Fine. Great tool for the job. What is the maximum distance you think you'll ever use your home defense shotgun? Trick question, what's the longest unobstructed distance between any two points in your home will provide the answer. Bet you a large cup of coffee and a donut it's gonna be under 30 feet.

I'll wait. Get out the tape measure and go find out now.

OK, here are some targets I used to determine the spread of an open choke Ithaca 37, 5', 10', 7 yds/21', 10 yds/30':


View attachment 775889

View attachment 775890

View attachment 775894

View attachment 775898

Bottom line; ya gotta aim the darn weapon if you hope to hit anything.

When using the shotgun, focus on your front sight or front bead. Control your trigger. The pellets will go where the gun is aimed, not where you hope they will go!

Rich
Thanks for that! I've been doing my best, for my whole life, to try and explain home defense shotguns, and you just put out a good visual for that. Outstanding!
00 buck is a great standard, though with years of use, I favor the 4 buck.
I saw the xrays of a man shot on New Year's eve with 00 years ago, you could count all nine pellets in his chest xray. He was still alive!
 
Very nice!!!
Have you ever patterned it w/ varying chokes?
Reason I ask...
I have patterned a couple short bbl jobs (18+ inch) and choke seems to have less effect than with long barrelled guns. Maybe due to higher pressure behind the shot column when leaving the bbl? I've not shot enough to really be definitive, but wondering...
Anyway, very neat and handy gun!
(PS: I do remember reading in Swearingen's Worlds Fighting Shotguns that military testing demonstrated a positive effect of Modified on short barrelled guns and I have one so factory choked, and it does.)
I tried a modified and a full. The modified shoots the best.
 
I have a TAC13 and I could shoot birds with it, holding it to eye level.

What I have found, my front hand controls most of the recoil. The hand on the grip is mostly to pull the trigger. They both contribute in other ways, but those are the main functions. This is for the way I shoot, anyway. Each to their own. I tried one of those AK style pistol grip short shotties, and forgot, and that reminded me, painfully. My right hand and wrist was sore for a week. I'm old, and my body doesn't take kindly to abuse.

With the TLR2 laser and light I can also shoot from the hip as well or better than aiming. Also around corners, while staying mostly covered. Especially inside a house, which is mostly why I have it.

Works for me, others may differ.
 
Yes we know. The OP has the paperwork already. Hence the suggestions.

This is true.

I really should have got digital prints when they first came out. With card prints my fastest approval was 10 days. This one only took 3 days. Just printed out my stamp!

i-qfXTBtL-L.jpg
 
Those are neat old Browning designed guns. I remember them from gunshop clerking days back in 91.
Inquiring minds want to know! What load's it stoked with?
I use Fed power-shok #1 buck 1-1/8oz. It's 12, 30cal.pellets at 1250fps purple hulls. They pattern the best with this Cyl.Bore barrel. I have 65cal musket ball slugs too, that will stack up shots at 30yrds.

I love these old Browning designs. I actually never thought, that I would see this one again. I have fond memories of bird hunting with it as a kid.
To the point I've collected a few more over the years.
In the 90s when you could still get them for $75 to $125 even in NY, I did.
 
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I have to put in my two cents in regard shotgun sights. Shotguns are NOT hand-grenades!! They must be aimed, except at virtually contact distance, in order to be assured a hit of your target. Let's try this. Many of the shotguns being shown here are intended for home defense. Fine. Great tool for the job. What is the maximum distance you think you'll ever use your home defense shotgun? Trick question, what's the longest unobstructed distance between any two points in your home will provide the answer. Bet you a large cup of coffee and a donut it's gonna be under 30 feet.

I'll wait. Get out the tape measure and go find out now.

OK, here are some targets I used to determine the spread of an open choke Ithaca 37, 5', 10', 7 yds/21', 10 yds/30':


View attachment 775889

View attachment 775890

View attachment 775894

View attachment 775898

Bottom line; ya gotta aim the darn weapon if you hope to hit anything.

When using the shotgun, focus on your front sight or front bead. Control your trigger. The pellets will go where the gun is aimed, not where you hope they will go!

Rich
About every three days, I post the merits of lasers. I have some that are over 20 years old and never had one fail. The grip activated or button activated with the trigger finger are the best.

I have never had a laser fail or a battery run down where it totally failed, they simply work and are reliable.

I do not always advocate for dot sights, but for laser for close combat, self defense or night use nothing comes close to solving all issues.

Lasers take retraining, but the key is you can shoot from the hip, under a table, or with your eyes totally removed from the gun and make fast hits on target, faster and more accurate than any other system. IF you are willing to choose the correct one and IF you are willing to retrain.
The the laser is just an option, use it or not.

But as you say, pointing may or may not work with a shotgun, the laser solves that instantly. There are a dozen types for shotguns and a dozen ways of mounting them, and there are no downsides to a laser, non, nobody ever sees it until the second your fire, unless you want to flash it around.

Just saying, you are correct, there must be a point of aim, and suggesting a laser is the best way to solve it, if..the person is willing to learn...
 
I use Fed power-shok #1 buck 1-1/8oz. It's 12, 30cal.pellets at 1250fps purple hulls. They pattern the best with this Cyl.Bore barrel. I have 65cal musket ball slugs too, that will stack up shots at 30yrds.

I love these old Browning designs. I actually never thought, that I would see this one again. I have fond memories of bird hunting with it as a kid.
To the point I've collected a few more over the years.
In the 90s when you could still get them for $75 to $125 even in NY, I did.
Thanks.
And yes, "not that long ago" (has it really been 30 YEARS...?) they were cobs nobody wanted. Today they are what they in truth were then; marvels of JMB engineering!
 
It has been more than a decade since I last attended a civilian based class regarding the use of lethal force, but at that time about 2012 the average cost of a self defense shooting was in the neighborhood of 250K on a very clean shooting. I had a relative who shot and killed someone in self defense with a .38 Special after being shot four times with a 30-30 Winchester. The family gave up every nickel they had to keep him out of prison. That was...early 90's.

If you shoot a man, the least of your worries is blood stains, spackle, ruined furnishings or decor.

It is my considered opinion that the only legitimate rule #4 concerns involve sentient beings. All else is expendable.

You sir make some very important observations.

The last decade of my working life, I was a litigation manager, meaning I supervised up to 17 contract lawyers who represented the government on various kinds of lawsuits. I was the guy that approved the contracts, the billing and so forth. I have paid attorneys $30,ooo of my tax dollars for a basic lawsuit and a few that went over $200,000. I have appealed several of them when attorney fees were excessive in my opinion, those being awarded against the government. I can qualify as an expert witness on the issue of attorney fees, lol, and here is my advice.

We have no clue how many attorney hours might be involved or how many private investigator hours might be involved or how much to pay expert witnesses like Mas Ayoob and deposition costs and court fees when defending either a criminal case or civil wrongful death case.

Even when you have everything on video a good shoot might still cause you a lengthy trial. And you have to pay for it. And generally, you cannot write any of those costs on your taxes. So, it is far better, not to shoot anyone period. Regardless of whether they need to be shot, and many do.....

I carried guns everyday for a living most of my life before law school, and worked my way through night law school working full time as a local police office or a federal special agent. I understand why we carry guns and why it is appropriate to shoot people.

I am now old and feeble, doctors say I am disabled, most old people are to some extent. Which means we have less time to decide whether to shoot because the perp can rush us or simply shoot us because we are now slower than before.

So we are balancing the risk of getting killed or getting sued. In my case if a perp comes into my house uninvited in daylight, I would request he look closely at my firearm and choose to leave, but if they show up in the dark, I have no way of knowing how many or how they are armed, my options are limited. And I forget about lawsuits and such. Those guys would likely be shot if they made any movement other than backwards.

And that is the advice I give, lawsuits are expensive if you shoot someone. You must get past the local DA for the criminal case. If you do, you still must defend a civil cases, as likely. And you have no clue what that will cost. Consider your 401K gone. And your next job at age 76 as working as a greeter at Walmart, if they still have those jobs.

So, (1) get a dog sign, (2) get a dog, (3) get motion detector lights, (4) get double dead bolts, and (5) get cameras for everywhere, both inside and outside, and (6) check your home owner's insurance, some will pay for lawsuits against you.

Cameras inside, tells the DA and jury what happened in the moment. Those outside tell the story of the posturing and planning and show the pre-mediation, showing them bringing in weapons that can kill, showing their intent, which you may see in their faces and eyes but you cameras inside will not show that. Cameras everywhere can save you all this expense.

The key is get over that macho thought that you can blast anyone that comes through the door, probably you can, but that may only be after you are bankrupt.

And there are too many other issues to mention but will take a stab at one more.

"it is dumb to fire warning shots"

Or is it? Somebody is banging on your door trying to get it. Do you just call 911 and wait? And shoot them the minute they get one foot inside? Or to you yell at the door that you have called police and or have a gun?

There have been many cases of drunks trying to break in on the wife or ex-wife, at the wrong house.

In my case, I suggest telling them the cops are on the way and I have a gun. If it appears they are still going to burst through the door, I will fire a warning shot, against most advice. But it is critical where you fire, I have done it before. You turn around and fire 180 degrees in the opposite direction. Why?

(1) because it means you were not firing toward them, your bullet would have to go around the entire planet to hit them, your attorney can say that. It was intended as a warning to avoid a deadly confrontation and that is exactly what it was, and attempt to avoid a deadly confrontation, your mindset, it defeats any claims of premeditated intent to shoot some guy because he was banging on your door in the middle of the night.

(2) you do so by firing into your own wall, a few inches above the floor, there is a hole in the wall and probably a mushroomed bullet on the ground outside your house.

(3) the evil or lost person outside just heard a gunshot, that puts him on notice he is not welcome and likely to get shot, a jury would know that he intentionally and willfully proceeding with deadly force to come after your, juries understand warning shots better than you would think, they are a loud, line in the sand, no rational person would continue beating down a door after hearing a gunshot, your attorney can use that,....they were not rational...crazy people....it is OK to shoot crazy people trying to kill you......

(4) it shows the DA you were not just some gun nut happy to shoot some young intruder....the minute you saw one clear sneaker, inside your door.


Just some thoughts. Just because we have the right to shoot people, does not make it a good idea and the cost of lawyers is just something to avoid.

As a lawyer, I made good money off of people who wanted to prove they were "right" in what they did, yet the cost was very very high, in terms of time, drama, and dollars.

Don't shoot people......nuff said. Lawyers do not need your money we can get by some other way.
 


"it is dumb to fire warning shots"

Or is it?
I've asked that question, too. I suppose jurisdictions matter as w/ most details involving shootings.
As regards "warning shots" I've often wondered if part of a solid home defense plan would involve a stack of old phone books in a corner where in the event a threat occurs to enter but as yet has not occurred, a few shots preceded by and followed by yelling "Don't come thru that door!" could be fired.
 
This old Stevens 16ga take down model with factory 20" tube. Stamped P and Cyl.Bore. Has been on house duty for decades. Starting out in my grandparent's house after WWII. Then it moved to an uncle's house in the 70s. When he had a nasty divorced mid 90s it went to live with my dad. Then when dad passed it came home with me. View attachment 776119
Nice Stevens!
Is that a model 520?
I have a couple Stevens made pump shotguns, that some call the "double hump" shotgun, which is also a Browning design.
Mine are Sears Roebuck, made by Stevens.
20231115_211118.jpg
 
Nice Stevens!
Is that a model 520?
I have a couple Stevens made pump shotguns, that some call the "double hump" shotgun, which is also a Browning design.
Mine are Sears Roebuck, made by Stevens.
View attachment 776288
It is a 520A. Nice double hump, Sears was the Ranger line iirc. Those are New England Westinghouse made. Earlier models are marked J Stevens Arms and Tool 1909 to 1916. Westinghouse changed the name to J Stevens Arms Company in 1916. They used the Chicopee Falls Mass plant to make them. That same plant made Mosins for the Russian Czar around the same time. Westinghouse then sold the Stevens line to Savage Arms in 1920.
This is my double hump.
A first year 1916 RiverSide Arms, Chicopee Falls Mass. 520 with the old style suicide safety and original inertia block locking system. It's a 16ga takedown.20250715_170935.jpg20250715_171111.jpg20250715_171142.jpg
 
I have side by sides in 20 and 12, coach guns. They are wonderful for quail on the rise or rabbits in cover, I have used the 20 for doves very successfully. Both are 18 inch barrels with no choke.

I cut a pump gun for carry in a police car in the 70s, for grins my buddy and I took it dove hunting, and were amazed at the distance I could kill them without any choke whatsoever. That barrel was 19.5 inches and worked very well for buckshot as well.
Back in the 80's I had a 870 riot gun and discovered Herter's sold a wad cup with no slits, just a solid cup. I loaded 1 1/4oz of #9 shot (most Dove & Quail loads were 1 oz). 5-7 yards it was still a slug. I would take it dove hunting and consistently kill birds 40-50 yards to the amazement of people around. I had everyone thinking choke was a marketing tool. Actually the short barrel was harder to shoot doves with because it was harder to swing with the birds, but I had a ball messing with people. Won son]me Turkey shoots with the short barrel after switching shells and had people really confused how I could shoot a better pattern than grandpa's old long barrel single shot
 
Jim's passing in 2007 is the absolute definition of irony ... a man who survived 18 separate shoot-outs as a founding member of the NYPD's elite "Stakeout Unit", only to be killed in a traffic accident at the age of 76. That's more gunfights than Wild West legends Wyatt Earp, Bat Masterson and "Wild Bill" Hickok combined!


RIP, Jim.
He also was a very friendly person always happy to help a young Cop. His wreck was very sad.
 
I'd stop way short of saying worthless. If you blast away from the hip you're likely to miss your target. But when a pistol gripped shotgun is held properly and aimed it's as accurate as any other
Lasers fix all those aiming issues. I have a dozen of them on guns and never had one fail in 20 years. And the batteries run down slowly, they are still usable when they start to go, so they always work and you always know when to change them. Shooting them from the hip, is a hoot.
 
Back in the 80's I had a 870 riot gun and discovered Herter's sold a wad cup with no slits, just a solid cup. I loaded 1 1/4oz of #9 shot (most Dove & Quail loads were 1 oz). 5-7 yards it was still a slug. I would take it dove hunting and consistently kill birds 40-50 yards to the amazement of people around. I had everyone thinking choke was a marketing tool. Actually the short barrel was harder to shoot doves with because it was harder to swing with the birds, but I had a ball messing with people. Won son]me Turkey shoots with the short barrel after switching shells and had people really confused how I could shoot a better pattern than grandpa's old long barrel single shot
Same here. People read about perfect choke patterns at 40 yards and forget that the gun is deadly on birds flying twice that far.

They also look at a 1 dimension picture of pattern like you might when testing a turkey load. But in really a dove or quail is not flying straight away they are quartering a bit if they are leaving because of you, and a long shot column does not hit all at one time. A dove for example flying away may cut through into another section of the pattern that is bit slower getting there. He may only need to move 1/4 inch, to catch that one pellet in the head.

They think in terms like this:
1752643926315.png


But birds do not think. When they are flying dead away they may be 3 inch target, but turn 45 degrees and they become a 6 inch one. And when they turn just a bit, the head is suddenly in the pattern, which may not have mattered if they were shot in the butt.

I have made two 80 yard kills on doves with a 19 and a 20 inch barrel. The guys were so shocked they stepped it off. And it is quite funny.
 
Jim's passing in 2007 is the absolute definition of irony ... a man who survived 18 separate shoot-outs as a founding member of the NYPD's elite "Stakeout Unit", only to be killed in a traffic accident at the age of 76. That's more gunfights than Wild West legends Wyatt Earp, Bat Masterson and "Wild Bill" Hickok combined!


RIP, Jim.
Jim was an outstanding man. Read alot about him. A true pioneer in his field. I just had someone over to pick up a gun who's middle name is Masterson. I asked him if he's dad watched a lot of old westerns. He is a descendant of Bat.
 
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