Short-barreled rifle question

[Wildman101010]

The facts are this. I have a legal pistol. I have a legal rifle. I recently sold the pistol lower to a friend with my Smith rifle upper attached (legal) and told him to either buy a 7" upper and have his own legal pistol OR buy a lower and have a legal rifle. Or just change the buffer tube. Whatever. He's all well, problem is ME!

I now have a 7 inch upper with my Smith lower. Absolutely illegal though I've always pondered exactly how anyone would ever know whether it was a real legal pistol or a lower without doing a serial number investigation and I can't imagine getting pulled over for whatever reason and having somebody see the gun in a vehicle search and taking it any further then face value. Still...

I'm taking off on a year long road trip and I'm going to be traveling with my guns. Not worth the risk of course of traveling with it assembled but I do want it handy in case SHTF, which right now is a distinct possibility. If it gets real bad then who cares there won't really be any rule of law and I will assemble it and be fine.

However up until that point, if I happen to get pulled over and they find the two pieces separated in the back of my truck... Now I will have my Colt 6920 as well so it's not like it's the only thing in my vehicle which is a major plus as far as intents is concerned. I could just say I'm using both lowers back-and-forth and the pistol lower was broken so I keep the barrel with me because I plan on buying one this trip

So that's what I'm trying to ascertain is if there is any law that they could get me on

 

[Kurusu]

You do realize that was hypothetical humor, right!

Hypothetical humour is so overateted.

 

[Kurusu]

This is probably wise, but man, I don't want to live where I need to produce papers for everything I own. It should be enough that I say it's legal. Alas, this is not the world we live in and I know, I live in one of the worst states. Fortunately, papers aren't required, yet.

Welcome to "my world".

 

[Westie1]

OP, just a word of advice. Best to stay out of California on your trip. Under Roberti-Roos, your 6920 is banned by name. And you won't be able to buy any ammo here.

 

[Wildman101010]

OP, just a word of advice. Best to stay out of California on your trip. Under Roberti-Roos, your 6920 is banned by name. And you won't be able to buy any ammo here.

Ha! I have NO intention of going anywhere near that crazy *** gun state!!!! Everything I'll have with me would be illegal there!

 

[Wildman101010]

Hypothetical humour is so overateted.

Especially when you missed it was!

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Your first issue would probably be a DUI arrest....

Larry

Not to mention being charged with possession of a firearm while intoxicated.

I think you got your answer but the drunk part got my attention as well as some other folks.

But let me put it another way that's easier to understand. ATF has weird rules and regulations. Some things are no issue, while some things fall under the NFA of 1934 and require tax stamps or you have committed a felony.

So I have this chunk of leather. That's all it is, a big chunk of leather with a snap and a couple of holes that match when you close the snap. It's just a chunk of leather. Boring. ATF doesn't regulate chunks of leather, right? Or do they?

So I have this vintage 2-shot derringer.

Actually I have two but let's stick to the one that is not NIB and that I have had so long I cannot recall when or where I obtained it. It's just a 2-shot derringer, it's a "firearm" and needs a Form 4473 if you buy it from a dealer and has needed such since 1968. Still, other than that, ATF has no special interest in it.

Now, suppose I'm not drunk, let's omit that foolishness, and I place that little gun inside the chunk of leather and close the snap. It looks like this.

Harmless looking concealed carry gun, yes? Except ATF says that's an AOW and requires a tax stamp. Simple deal - that's the rule and I can't go around saying I was drinking and forgot that A does not go into B. It's a felony without a tax stamp.

So, that's the same as your SBR. Two guns that started life out as nice legal weapons under the GCA of 1968. You mixed the parts of two guns and created a weapon covered by the NFA of 1934. It's that simple. Felony. Drunk or sober. In your garage or in your car. In your back yard or on the range or in the woods. Felony.

Don't drink and drive and don't tinker with your guns either if you don't understand the ATF's rules and believe me they are sticklers for their rules..

 

[Kurusu]

Especially when you missed it was!

You just fell on your own trap.

 

[old tanker]

I think you got your answer but the drunk part got my attention as well as some other folks.

But let me put it another way that's easier to understand. ATF has weird rules and regulations. Some things are no issue, while some things fall under the NFA of 1934 and require tax stamps or you have committed a felony.

So I have this chunk of leather. That's all it is, a big chunk of leather with a snap and a couple of holes that match when you close the snap. It's just a chunk of leather. Boring. ATF doesn't regulate chunks of leather, right? Or do they?

So I have this vintage 2-shot derringer.

Actually I have two but let's stick to the one that is not NIB and that I have had so long I cannot recall when or where I obtained it. It's just a 2-shot derringer, it's a "firearm" and needs a Form 4473 if you buy it from a dealer and has needed such since 1968. Still, other than that, ATF has no special interest in it.

Now, suppose I'm not drunk, let's omit that foolishness, and I place that little gun inside the chunk of leather and close the snap. It looks like this.

Harmless looking concealed carry gun, yes? Except ATF says that's an AOW and requires a tax stamp. Simple deal - that's the rule and I can't go around saying I was drinking and forgot that A does not go into B. It's a felony without a tax stamp.

So, that's the same as your SBR. Two guns that started life out as nice legal weapons under the GCA of 1968. You mixed the parts of two guns and created a weapon covered by the NFA of 1934. It's that simple. Felony. Drunk or sober. In your garage or in your car. In your back yard or on the range or in the woods. Felony.

Don't drink and drive and don't tinker with your guns either if you don't understand the ATF's rules and believe me they are sticklers for their rules..

You forgot the really crazy part. It wasn't always that way. The wallet was, at one time, a factory option for the High Standard derringer. No telling how many got sold back in the day. ATF ignored it for decades.

Then one fine day, the Technical Branch, inexplicably, simply changed its mind. One day an ATF Letter says this and that is legal. Some time later another ATF letter, that may or may not even reference or rescind the first letter and say the same thing is illegal! It's about as crazy and as risky as tap dancing in a minefield.

 

[vipermd]

AOW

You forgot the really crazy part. It wasn't always that way. The wallet was, at one time, a factory option for the High Standard derringer. No telling how many got sold back in the day. ATF ignored it for decades.

Then one fine day, the Technical Branch, inexplicably, simply changed its mind. One day an ATF Letter says this and that is legal. Some time later another ATF letter, that may or may not even reference or rescind the first letter and say the same thing is illegal! It's about as crazy and as risky as tap dancing in a minefield.

You are correct and it is frightening. At one time, when tec -9 came into being they came with a factory foregrip which was legal, and then it was no longer legal, much like the wallet holster. I do not profess to know every federal law, and and as such, the pistol lower with a short barreled upper is legal, but switching back and forth between a rifle and pistol may not be legal. Before anyone says it, I have read, also discussed with ATF the interchangeability. If you look hard enough you can find laws that state it is legal, and also illegal????, I spoke to 2 different agents in different locations and was told 2 different things. So back to the OP's original question- I would not have a rifle lower, boxed with a pistol ( short barrel ) upper, I would keep them separate but I am not a lawyer. Having a short - less than 18" shotgun barrel would probably be illegal if you did not have an SBS, since even though you would not put it together, you have no other legal use for it, where a short upper, could be stored until you get funds or find the right lower which would be legal, dependent on your state.
As old tanker stated it is like tap dancing in a mine field, I will sit this one out. Be Safe.

 

[Rastoff]

Agreed, but it is what it is. I also have an AR pistol. I carry the original papers showing it is a pistol with that one too, less they think I "manufactured" an SBR.

I carry copies of form 3's for demo NFA items. If someone would ask, I have it, end of story, does not matter who is asking, since it is there in Black & White. Proof of an NFA item, ( Form 3 or 4 ) must be with you in all states. Be Safe.

As long as we're talking about SBRs and the legalities associated with that....

There's something that has bothered me for some time. Why get an SBR at all? Or an AR pistol for that matter? I mean, if it requires all this paperwork that you have to carry with you, what's the point? Is it just to say that you have one?

Unless you're clearing a house, which no civilian does regularly, I just don't see an advantage. They're not superior to a rifle in function or ballistics. They're actually more challenging to handle. Due to the short gas system, they're not even as reliable as a regular rifle.

So, why put up with the hassle to have one?

 

[RoyS]

This is an interesting thread with some good humor and some good advice too.

If you guys would indulge me, I will share my tuppence worth.

I personally like the idea of an SBR but don't like the legal hassle or restrictions. I travel a lot (by car) and often find myself in other states for extended periods, so owning and traveling or crossing state lines with an SBR was just a non starter for me.

So I gave this a lot of thought and eventually went with a Robinson XCR 'pistol' in 300blk. Love, love, love it. It gives me all that I want in such a gun but without the legal hassles. And I have to give a shout out to Robinson, hands down the very best customer service I have ever experienced from a firearms manufacture.

Cheerio,

Roy

 

[ISCS Yoda]

You forgot the really crazy part. It wasn't always that way. The wallet was, at one time, a factory option for the High Standard derringer. No telling how many got sold back in the day. ATF ignored it for decades.

Then one fine day, the Technical Branch, inexplicably, simply changed its mind. One day an ATF Letter says this and that is legal. Some time later another ATF letter, that may or may not even reference or rescind the first letter and say the same thing is illegal! It's about as crazy and as risky as tap dancing in a minefield.

Agreed. It IS frightening. Also, when Galco was making those "wallets" it never occurred to them that they were NFA restricted. I have had mine for so many years that when I first heard about the AOW rule I scoffed, said it was not possible. Oops. So we added a serial number to the leather and I got a tax stamp. Done and done.

 

[Bob L]

You might try putting quote marks around the search term, like "SBR". It doesn't eliminate everythoing but gennerally it will cut down on the results, maybe!

Getting to the point Google is just totally useless now because there's so much information out there, that when you punch in keywords you need to research, up pops 1 million other subjects not related to your question!!! Drives me insane it does.

What good is a search engine that produces 200,000 results?

Anyway, now that I've got THAT off my chest, what are the laws concerning a separated SBR? Let's say I get drunk one night and I can't see my hand in front of my face and I accidentally put my smith lower on my PSA 7 inch pistol barrel.

I'm running down the road and I get pulled over by cop. Proceeding now with the hypothetical situation that its not registered and there's no stamp, in other words it's illegal, what if you hurriedly separated it and put the barrel on one seat and the lower on the other? Are there any kind of laws concerning assembled versus disassembled, and if so, is there a mandated certain distance they have to be from each other???

What if the barrel is under the front seat and the lower is in the trunk? I can't find an answer to that question guys! Or gals..

 

[Nedroe]

The Only Sure Way......

to avoid an issue with short uppers is to own an M-16. Then you can as many short uppers as you like.

Ned