Shotgun Resurgence?

[Classic Radio99]

My daughter is considering a Shockwave or TAC 14 for home defense.
Do you have opinions on them? There seems to be plusses and Minusses
on both of them.

Have her stay away from those particular models, they are very hard to handle, unless the shooter is very experienced. The minuses FAR outweigh the pluses, IMO.

BTW, I highly recommend the Lucky Gunner video on shotguns posted earlier in this thread.

A youth 20 gauge from Mossberg or Remington should fit the bill. I prefer Mossberg because they use a tang safety, which is on the top rear of the receiver. It is easy to see and can be operated with your thumb so your grip on the gun doesn't change.

The idea of a semi-auto is intriguing, many beginners have a hard time racking a pump shotgun correctly (fast enough and with authority) and can have problems with malfunctions.

I use #4 or #6 birdshot, 2 3/4" non-magnum, around 1 oz. of shot ("Pheasant Loads" or Game Loads), at indoor ranges, 10-30 ft., the shot pattern is usually extremely tight. 1+ ounce of lead, whether it's in one piece, or a couple hundred can be lethal at close range. Also, birdshot does not have the over-penetration issues you'll have with buckshot.
Paul Harrell did a series of videos on YouTube where he demonstrates all this. Here's one of a series: [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaR1EVybUgc[/ame]

Finally, one CANNOT simply buy a shotgun (or any gun) with some ammunition and just put it in the closet for eventual use and expect to be anything but unsafe.
New shooters should learn the Universal Firearm Safety Rules, one of many good videos here:[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2Vrc2R1oGU[/ame]

Practice, Practice, Practice, Practice, Practice, Practice!!!!!!
Range time is extremely important, especially for a new shooter.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

I have... and a turkey is still a bird, and #4 turkey load is still bird shot. The pellet in #4 bird shot is less than half the size of #1 buck. Still not a reliable man stopper.

You have ZERO proof to back that up. 2 oz. of copper plated #4's will kill you graveyard dead at 20-30 feet.

 

[rich5674]

Choose your 20ga ammo carefully

Phil—I don't know how much experience your daughter has with guns but those shotguns are a handful. I think the regular stocked Remington 870 youth model 20 gauge is hard to beat.

This is one of the best gun articles I have ever read and by one of our Fourm members to boot.

I didn't read the article. Couple years ago I bought a 870ga for multipurpose gun. A little lighter than a 12 gauge. Maybe less recoil. Good for the bride. With the slugs I needed for hog hunting it recoiled more than my 12ga because of the guns lighter weight.
Btw in certain circles I know of, a 20 gauge coach gun is a decent and acceptable house warming for a family that husband is not always around. Easy to operate, low recoil

 

[cyphertext]

You have ZERO proof to back that up. 2 oz. of copper plated #4's will kill you graveyard dead at 20-30 feet.

Actually, if you do a little research and review gelatin tests, you would find all the proof that you are wrong.

Look at this video for example. From 10 ft, the #4 shot load penetrated the gel 8". That falls way short of the FBI recommendation of 12". Could it stop a threat? Possibly. Would it be recommended as a load that will penetrate enough to stop a threat reliably? No.

If #4 bird shot is so effective, why are there no LE loads for it? I can find LE load for 00 buck, #1 buck, and even #4 buck. I've never seen a bird shot load marketed for LE use or self defense use! There must be a reason for that...

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GqZaVQW7O4"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GqZaVQW7O4[/ame]

 

[tops]

I remember as a kid opening up shells and dumping out small shot and putting in BBs and recrimping by hand. I shot an abandoned outhouse and the shot went through one wall. That's the only penetration test I have done but it leads me too believe that it would leave a pretty big mark on a person. Larry

 

[crazyphil]

Ah, that must be what they call shooting the ----?

 

[cyphertext]

I remember as a kid opening up shells and dumping out small shot and putting in BBs and recrimping by hand. I shot an abandoned outhouse and the shot went through one wall. That's the only penetration test I have done but it leads me too believe that it would leave a pretty big mark on a person. Larry

If your goal is to "leave a pretty big mark", then just about any load would work.

 

[Drm50]

I certain areas of the country, rural America the shotgun has never been forgotten. It doesn't have to be rediscovered. Inside of most HD distances a high brass load of #4s or bigger will discourage the bad guys. Yea you might get attacked by ninja turtles but shotgun will make normal humans fairly sick when hit with a load of any shot at close range.

 

[tops]

Ah, that must be what they call shooting the ----?

Everybody has to be somewhere doing something. Larry

 

[Rastoff]

...a high brass load...

This is another myth with shotgun shells.

Shot shells typically have brass or steel bases. The height of the base is a marketing tool, nothing more. Typically, factory shells with a taller base have a higher powder charge and are therefore, faster shells. However, it's the chamber that contains the pressure, not the base of the shell. So, high or low brass can have exactly the same charge.

In fact, there are some shells out there with no brass or steel. They are 100% plastic and they work just fine.

What really matters is the DREQ or FPS of the shell. The faster the load, the more powerful it will be with that particular shot amount.

 

[Drm50]

This is another myth with shotgun shells.

Shot shells typically have brass or steel bases. The height of the base is a marketing tool, nothing more. Typically, factory shells with a taller base have a higher powder charge and are therefore, faster shells. However, it's the chamber that contains the pressure, not the base of the shell. So, high or low brass can have exactly the same charge.

In fact, there are some shells out there with no brass or steel. They are 100% plastic and they work just fine.

What really matters is the DREQ or FPS of the shell. The faster the load, the more powerful it will be with that particular shot amount.

I think most who shoot shotguns know the difference between the different loads. In shotgun country Hi Brass means a heavy load for hunting purposes. Although if one starts will technical stuff about chamber pressure and velocity nobody will know what you are talking about and care less.

 

[cyphertext]

I think most who shoot shotguns know the difference between the different loads.

If this were a true statement, we wouldn't constantly have discussions about bird shot being considered adequate for defensive purposes.

 

[LostintheOzone]

I've always had a shotgun close at hand for home defense as well as a trusty S&W revolver. That shotgun being a youth model 20ga Mossberg 500.
I recently acquired this Circa 1970's Mossberg 500ATP. It was imported - purportedly used by the Malaysian army. Extended tube with bayonet M16 mounting lug. Bluing is all gone if it ever had any and the furniture is worn. Overall shape is fair to good but the action and internals are all working well.

Bayonet. Now we're talking CQC.

 

[PMW555]

Low recoil shells work for me.

I have a Mossberg 500 "riot gun" that I inherited from my dad. It has some type of rough coating on it I think to protect it from the elements, as Dad had it on a boat. Anyway, I took it to the range a while back with some low recoil 00 buck (12ga), and some standard field loads with #8 shot. The low recoil loads we fairly pleasant to shoot, but the field loads were brutal. I could not believe the difference in the recoil. I keep it loaded with the low recoil buck. But,wow, at 7 yards, either load shredded the target. I apologized to the attendant for the mess I made, but it was fun.

 

[oink]

but the field loads were brutal.

Try some full power slugs.

 

[shocker]

I went to my shop and gathered some wood scraps - very well seasoned oak around 3/4" thick. Shot them at 10 yds with #6 game loads. Penetration of isolated shot into the oak was about 1/4", except near "ground zero" where the amount of energy dumped tends to split the boards into pieces.

 

[Echo40]

12 Gauge is pretty incredible in the way that it has its own dedicated Caliber Wars, and the arguments, anecdotal evidence, and confirmation biased within is even more ridiculous because it's freakin' 12 Gauge!

Honestly, it's the most nonsensical thing next to arguments over which .45-70 load is most effective for deer hunting, except at least in those arguments nobody attempts to argue that any particular load is ineffective because they actually shoot deer and thus know that any .45-70 will easily drop a buck.

Honestly, there needs to be a rule, unspoken or otherwise, that if your argument is that something "might not be effective" under certain circumstances, than your argument is invalid and automatically discarded because it's effectively a non-argument.
There's nothing more pointless than the ever popular excuse for a counter-argument that is; "Yeah well, it might not be effective 100% of the time under every single scenario including extremely unlikely ones, ergo you're a fool if you use it and I use something else because I'm smarter than you!" yet in any given thread regarding Self-Defense, somebody is bound to make it. Bonus points when it involves absurdly specific scenarios which assert an overwhelming disadvantage and can be summed up as; "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies".

 

[dr. mordo]

I just bought my last gun for quite a while, but I've been thinking I really want one of these for home defense.

Panzer BP-12

 

[Oldfrt]

You can put me in the fool catagory, I keep 7.5 shot as the first couple of rounds in my Charles Daly Honch 410 with a PDX as the final in the tube. Since the gun sits there with no expectation of use I don't put 5 rounds in it. I also don't have a room or hallway longer than 10 feet in the house so I don't have to worry about how much spread or power loss at 20 plus feet. If I need to reach out and touch someone from longer distances then I get a rifle or one of my 460 magnum revolvers that are loaded with 200 grain FTX's.

 

[dr. mordo]

It's a bit off topic, but Dave Chapelle's most recent comedy show on Netflix (Sticks and Stones) had a pretty hilarious explanation of how loads his home defense shotgun.

It's a pretty hilarious, obscene, and offensive bit, so don't watch if that doesn't sound appealing.