I think most who shoot shotguns know the difference between the different loads. In shotgun country Hi Brass means a heavy load for hunting purposes. Although if one starts will technical stuff about chamber pressure and velocity nobody will know what you are talking about and care less.
Shotgun Resurgence?
- Thread starter JayFramer
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I think most who shoot shotguns know the difference between the different loads. In shotgun country Hi Brass means a heavy load for hunting purposes. Although if one starts will technical stuff about chamber pressure and velocity nobody will know what you are talking about and care less.
cyphertext
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If this were a true statement, we wouldn't constantly have discussions about bird shot being considered adequate for defensive purposes.
I've always had a shotgun close at hand for home defense as well as a trusty S&W revolver. That shotgun being a youth model 20ga Mossberg 500.
I recently acquired this Circa 1970's Mossberg 500ATP. It was imported - purportedly used by the Malaysian army. Extended tube with bayonet M16 mounting lug. Bluing is all gone if it ever had any and the furniture is worn. Overall shape is fair to good but the action and internals are all working well.
Bayonet. Now we're talking CQC.
Low recoil shells work for me.
I have a Mossberg 500 "riot gun" that I inherited from my dad. It has some type of rough coating on it I think to protect it from the elements, as Dad had it on a boat. Anyway, I took it to the range a while back with some low recoil 00 buck (12ga), and some standard field loads with #8 shot. The low recoil loads we fairly pleasant to shoot, but the field loads were brutal. I could not believe the difference in the recoil. I keep it loaded with the low recoil buck. But,wow, at 7 yards, either load shredded the target. I apologized to the attendant for the mess I made, but it was fun.
I have a Mossberg 500 "riot gun" that I inherited from my dad. It has some type of rough coating on it I think to protect it from the elements, as Dad had it on a boat. Anyway, I took it to the range a while back with some low recoil 00 buck (12ga), and some standard field loads with #8 shot. The low recoil loads we fairly pleasant to shoot, but the field loads were brutal. I could not believe the difference in the recoil. I keep it loaded with the low recoil buck. But,wow, at 7 yards, either load shredded the target. I apologized to the attendant for the mess I made, but it was fun.
Try some full power slugs.
I went to my shop and gathered some wood scraps - very well seasoned oak around 3/4" thick. Shot them at 10 yds with #6 game loads. Penetration of isolated shot into the oak was about 1/4", except near "ground zero" where the amount of energy dumped tends to split the boards into pieces.
Echo40
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12 Gauge is pretty incredible in the way that it has its own dedicated Caliber Wars, and the arguments, anecdotal evidence, and confirmation biased within is even more ridiculous because it's freakin' 12 Gauge!
Honestly, it's the most nonsensical thing next to arguments over which .45-70 load is most effective for deer hunting, except at least in those arguments nobody attempts to argue that any particular load is ineffective because they actually shoot deer and thus know that any .45-70 will easily drop a buck.
Honestly, there needs to be a rule, unspoken or otherwise, that if your argument is that something "might not be effective" under certain circumstances, than your argument is invalid and automatically discarded because it's effectively a non-argument.
There's nothing more pointless than the ever popular excuse for a counter-argument that is; "Yeah well, it might not be effective 100% of the time under every single scenario including extremely unlikely ones, ergo you're a fool if you use it and I use something else because I'm smarter than you!" yet in any given thread regarding Self-Defense, somebody is bound to make it. Bonus points when it involves absurdly specific scenarios which assert an overwhelming disadvantage and can be summed up as; "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies".
Honestly, it's the most nonsensical thing next to arguments over which .45-70 load is most effective for deer hunting, except at least in those arguments nobody attempts to argue that any particular load is ineffective because they actually shoot deer and thus know that any .45-70 will easily drop a buck.
Honestly, there needs to be a rule, unspoken or otherwise, that if your argument is that something "might not be effective" under certain circumstances, than your argument is invalid and automatically discarded because it's effectively a non-argument.
There's nothing more pointless than the ever popular excuse for a counter-argument that is; "Yeah well, it might not be effective 100% of the time under every single scenario including extremely unlikely ones, ergo you're a fool if you use it and I use something else because I'm smarter than you!" yet in any given thread regarding Self-Defense, somebody is bound to make it. Bonus points when it involves absurdly specific scenarios which assert an overwhelming disadvantage and can be summed up as; "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies".
You can put me in the fool catagory, I keep 7.5 shot as the first couple of rounds in my Charles Daly Honch 410 with a PDX as the final in the tube. Since the gun sits there with no expectation of use I don't put 5 rounds in it. I also don't have a room or hallway longer than 10 feet in the house so I don't have to worry about how much spread or power loss at 20 plus feet. If I need to reach out and touch someone from longer distances then I get a rifle or one of my 460 magnum revolvers that are loaded with 200 grain FTX's.
It's a bit off topic, but Dave Chapelle's most recent comedy show on Netflix (Sticks and Stones) had a pretty hilarious explanation of how loads his home defense shotgun.
It's a pretty hilarious, obscene, and offensive bit, so don't watch if that doesn't sound appealing.
It's a pretty hilarious, obscene, and offensive bit, so don't watch if that doesn't sound appealing.
.38SuperMan
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I bought a Mossberg 590 in 1994 and have been very pleased with it. I used it in 3 gun matches in the 90's and cracked the receiver which Mossberg cheerfully replaced. No other issues since. And it's a serious weapon with 00 Buck.
kbm6893
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Most of these first time panic buying gun owners are just looking for SOMETHING to make them feel safe, and shotguns are cheap(under $200), available, currently free from anti-gun bias ("you don't need an AR. Get a shotgun" Joe Biden approves), and have the Hollywood allure of the ultimate in bad-***. According to the "experts", you don't need to aim at all because the spread will get them, and just shucking the action will send bad guys running. They will spend the rest of their lives under a bed or in a closet, never even fired.
Personally, I think they're the worst choice for a new buyer. Recoil is fierce, loud as all hell(both traits make them scary to those unfamiliar) and can easily malfunction if they are short-stroked.
Resurgence? Hardly. People are buying them to have something, is all. When this is all over most will get sold back for pennies on the dollar. Those that don't won't see the light of day. All the ranges are closed during this pandemic so nobody is even familiarizing themselves with them. When they open again the crisis will have passed so there won't be any need. I was buying some .22 at Walmart a few weeks ago. Guy behind the counter said all shotguns sold out. Customer after customer telling him this was their first gun purchase. When all the shotguns were gone people were buying whatever gun fit the ammo they had left. Nothing like a 7MM Remington Mag as your home defense gun!
Personally, I think they're the worst choice for a new buyer. Recoil is fierce, loud as all hell(both traits make them scary to those unfamiliar) and can easily malfunction if they are short-stroked.
Resurgence? Hardly. People are buying them to have something, is all. When this is all over most will get sold back for pennies on the dollar. Those that don't won't see the light of day. All the ranges are closed during this pandemic so nobody is even familiarizing themselves with them. When they open again the crisis will have passed so there won't be any need. I was buying some .22 at Walmart a few weeks ago. Guy behind the counter said all shotguns sold out. Customer after customer telling him this was their first gun purchase. When all the shotguns were gone people were buying whatever gun fit the ammo they had left. Nothing like a 7MM Remington Mag as your home defense gun!
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Not surprised at all as many folks that can't afford/find an AR or AK have turned to the classic pump gun. I've had a trusty 870 Police Mag as my bump-in-the-night gun since 2000.
Well the down side to this is I like to find LEO trade-in shotguns in the riot configuration but since the panic they have disappeared from the offering. Hopefully and prayerfully this will be over soon and things will get make to normal. Most of the sites that typically carry these trade ins are Sold Out. ;(
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Echo40
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You know, I've never understood how anyone who isn't trying to machinegun their Shotgun by attempting to work the slide as fast as they possibly can without any concern whatsoever about maintaining accuracy could ever short-stroke the slide, thus resulting in a malfunction.
Honestly, I knew before I ever even owned a firearm that in order to feed a round in a Pump Action Shotgun, that the slide had to be brought fully to the rear then back fully to the fore, sheerly by observation, and since I have come to own a Pump Action Shotgun I have short-stroked the slide a grand total of zero times.
No, I didn't undergo months of training at Gunsight Academy before learning how to properly work the slide either. Heck, I didn't even bother to read the manual because it was obvious what to do. Push up the little doohicky behind the trigger gaurd, then pull back the slide fully to the rear, and then push it all the way back forward. It ain't rocket surgery!
Honestly, I knew before I ever even owned a firearm that in order to feed a round in a Pump Action Shotgun, that the slide had to be brought fully to the rear then back fully to the fore, sheerly by observation, and since I have come to own a Pump Action Shotgun I have short-stroked the slide a grand total of zero times.
No, I didn't undergo months of training at Gunsight Academy before learning how to properly work the slide either. Heck, I didn't even bother to read the manual because it was obvious what to do. Push up the little doohicky behind the trigger gaurd, then pull back the slide fully to the rear, and then push it all the way back forward. It ain't rocket surgery!
Try observing some mandatory police shotgun qualifications with time pressure and running and yelling, lots of co-workers observing and judging your performance and with your employment status depending on the outcome. You'll see some short strokes.
Echo40
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I'm not a policeman, I'm pretty sure that most of these COVID-19 panic-buyers aren't policemen either, (or at least I really hope they aren't) and with all due respect, anybody who becomes so rattled by a simple test that it causes them to induce malfunctions which could get them killed in the field probably aren't cut out to be on-duty cops and should probably be assigned to positions in which the risk of getting into a gunfight is practically zero.
A shotgun may be the better choice for 1st time buyer HD gun. New shooter is not going to be worth much except at point blank range. The shotgun will improve hits and over penetration in neighborhoods isn't a concern.
I took two 2 3/4,1 1/8,8 shells and opened crimp removed shot and replace with BBs and closed crimp by hand. They both fed from the mag. in my tekteecool gun. The back of the 2X6 shows one shot at 20ft and the other shot at 6ft. I am led to believe that either one of those pretty big marks would suffice.
Larry
fatcat3
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I agree that I want em stopped. Myself I rely on a shotgun for home def. with 00 buck. Having said that and looking at those ex rays, if that person did continue to fight I'm betting even a fat old man like me has a distinct advantage.
cyphertext
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I took two 2 3/4,1 1/8,8 shells and opened crimp removed shot and replace with BBs and closed crimp by hand. They both fed from the mag. in my tekteecool gun. The back of the 2X6 shows one shot at 20ft and the other shot at 6ft. I am led to believe that either one of those pretty big marks would suffice.
While that looks impressive, I don't believe that it relates to how that load would penetrate flesh. Wood doesn't have any give... where flesh does. Professionals do not use boards to test the penetration of a round to determine if it is a reliable stopper, they use carefully calibrated ballistics gel that simulates the properties of flesh and organs. These professionals have shown that #4 buck is the minimum load that will reliably penetrate deep enough to hit vitals and stop a threat.
I do like your "tekteecool" shotgun though. The bayonet really speaks to me!
fatcat3
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I have short stroked a shotgun in just such a qualification. Cleared it and continued and passed the course. Some 15 years later still on the job. Guess I should thank my lucky stars that the dept. I work for don't expect our officers to be perfect.
cyphertext
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Not necessarily. As previously pointed out by others, a new shooter can be put off by the sound and the recoil of the shotgun. When I instruct new shooters, I can get a new shooter to make hits with an AR or pistol caliber carbine equipped with a red dot faster than anything else. I typically start them with my .22 lr AR-15. Once they are comfortable, I move them up to 5.56mm. With more points of contact, it is easier to get a new shooter to make those hits with a long gun than the handgun. I never have them shooting at stationary targets with the shotgun though... range doesn't allow shotguns on the pistol or rifle range, so typically have the new shooter start with a target thrown from a mechanical thrower that simply goes straight out and away from the shooter. I will typically start them out with a semi auto 20 gauge as well.
However, the over penetration is going to depend on what load is used. Double ought buck is going to go through walls, as will #4 buck. Still have to be aware of your target and what is behind it.
After shooting both, I see a few more gravitate to choosing the shotgun. Hitting the moving targets builds confidence, and they just find it more fun than shooting paper at a bench.
white cloud
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The same debate rages every time shotguns are mentioned.
I would be willing to bet that if the guy with the x-ray below was still mobile, he sure as hell didn't stick around for another dose of the same!
I am not a doctor but this guy's ability to breath must have been seriously impacted (pun intended). I wonder how a surgeon would get all those pellets out.
Chief Wiggums
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Guys at the LGS have told me active dialog w the 1rst time buyer gang.
Expect a surplus of Glock 19's to hit the secondary market
Rastoff
US Veteran
It's not nearly as bad as it looks. Most of those pellets are just barely skin deep. I'll bet none of them actually penetrated to the lungs. Notice that this x-ray is from the front and side.
Jack Flash
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I'm wondering if this x-ray shows wounds from a hunting accident.
There are so many unknowns here:
What was the range? (That's quite a spread!)
What type and how many garments were worn? Heavy hunting coat, etc?
What was the angle of impact? Above? Below? Side?
Did the pellets pass through brush / other foliage before human impact?
Light target load or heavy hunting load?
Others could probably add to the above list of unknowns.
The point is that too much is unknown to draw serious conclusions from these two x-rays. I am still willing to bet the guy didn't stick around for a second dose. He was probably writhing around on the ground screaming like a little girl -- I know I would be!
If it was a home defense situation and the wounded guy became enraged and charged the shooter, … well, that's why we don't use single shot firearms for HD.
The debate rages on. I know what I rely on and why. I don't try to proselytize the rest of the world.
CAJUNLAWYER
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That really does not look like a real x ray to me. Looks more like an x ray of a shot pattern in ballistic gel superimposed on a torso x ray. ANyone who does not think that 7.5 shot is adequate-put on your heaviest coat and let me shoot you at across the room distance and see what happens. I guarantee that it will stop the fight. I've shot armadillo with 7.5 shot at room distance and it pretty much vaporized them.The same debate rages every time shotguns are mentioned.
I would be willing to bet that if the guy with the x-ray below was still mobile, he sure as hell didn't stick around for another dose of the same!
Be that as it may, I feel quite adequately armed with 23/4 baby magnum #3 steel in my bedroom 870. It also does great on decoying ducks at 25-30 yards
Rastoff
US Veteran
I'm sure it is a real X-ray. Look at this pic:
There are many many pictures on the internet of people who've been shot by game loads. I have no doubt that they hurt terribly. However, the point is not to hurt them, but to stop them definitively. None of the pictures I've seen where they were shot with game loads would have stopped the bad guy.
Will most run due to the noise and sting? Probably. I'm not counting on probably when my life is on the line. And I won't be shooting at anyone if my life isn't on the line.
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