Shotgun Resurgence?

[cyphertext]

The same debate rages every time shotguns are mentioned.
I would be willing to bet that if the guy with the x-ray below was still mobile, he sure as hell didn't stick around for another dose of the same!

I don't want any threat that I engage in my home to still be mobile... I want him stopped. A person that remains mobile may flee, but they may also continue to fight.

 

[Jack Flash]

Some of those pellets had to give him the world's worst heartburn!

 

[rockquarry]

It's hard to beat a plain, unadorned with gadgetry, 12 ga. short-barreled 870 with a real stock, wood or plastic, and buckshot loads.

 

[reccpd101]

Multiple times I've been asked to train whole families in home defense, including middle school age kids, petite daughter and wife, and husbands of all varieties. I teach Boy Scouts 22s & shotguns, Explorer & LE Scouts handguns. I am a former LE firearms state certified trainer including advanced techniques and a current concealed handgun instructor.

The first question the husband asks is what gun should I buy or I'll bring my plastic fantastic roscoe. I tell him not to buy anything yet and bring his roscoe another time. My first question is about his families prior experience. I bring my 22, 32, 38/357 revolvers and 22, 380, 9mm, and 40, 45 autos. I bring lever action pistol caliber carbines, AR-9s, AR-15s, and 20 & 12 gauge double, pump, and semi shotguns. I also tell him he will shoot last, keep his opinions to himself, and watch and listen to his family first.

We start with law of self defense, Castle doctrine, stand your ground law, then go thru the NRA first shots class whether or not they have shot before. I then ask if anyone thinks they can not, for ANY reason, shoot some else to defend themselves or family. (There is NOT a wrong answer but it makes them think about it usually for the first time).

At the range, we do safety briefing and shoot 22s, revolver & auto & carbines starting with the youngest and moving up in age. We then move up in calibers. Everything is 10 yards or less. With a rural family, it's a bit different. The core take away is establish a defensible room and let the bad actors make the mistake of trying to get it. No property is worth confrontation only your family.

With rare exceptions, the result is a family decision to get a mid size 38 (K frame) revolver and a 20 gauge shotgun, usually a pump but sometimes a double.

We close with what happens after a shooting and how to deal with it.

Sorry for the long post but the right firearm is only PART of the process. How you get to the right firearm and why is at least as important. I usually want three days to do this with EVERYONE present. If the family as a WHOLE is already into shooting, we won't use all the allocated time and the cost is lower.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

How do you know it was the wad and not the shot?

You will not get hit in the face with an ejected shell. I'm a lefty and I've fired over 100,000 rounds with semi-auto shotguns and never been hit in the face with an ejected shell. Neither are they visually distracting.


I'm blown away by the poor information in this thread. Using #7.5 or smaller shot is a terrible idea for self-defense. Even at close range where it doesn't spread out a lot, because the pellets are so small, they won't penetrate enough to stop the bad guy.

Remember, the point is to stop the bad guy. Not scare him, wound him, injure him or even startle him. No, it's to stop him cold in his tracks.

The x-ray of the guy with all the shot in him is nifty, but that guy is still a viable threat and now he's pissed.

I'll take 00Buck over every other round any day. Sure, if you miss there could be a penetration issue, but the chances of that penetration actually harming an innocent are astronomically small. I want the surety of a stop on the first shot.[/QU

Apparently........You have never shot a #4 Turkey load.

 

[Iframe32s]

[/QU Apparently........You have never shot a #4 Turkey load.[/QUOTE]

I have..from a 10 ga. 3 1/2" mag. Don't know if it hit the target as hard as it did my shoulder, but it was pretty impressive pattern-wise. 2 oz. of copper plated #4's

 

[cyphertext]

Apparently........You have never shot a #4 Turkey load.

I have... and a turkey is still a bird, and #4 turkey load is still bird shot. The pellet in #4 bird shot is less than half the size of #1 buck. Still not a reliable man stopper.

 

[Rudi]

I never realized they had fallen out of favor.

 

[CH4]

Been wanting a Tac 14 since I checked one out at SHOT a couple years ago. Picked one up at Scheels a while back - strictly a cheap impulse buy. Other than a cool novelty (because it looks illegal), I initially didn't have an intended use for it. Now I am thinking house gun.

 

[JayFramer]

I never realized they had fallen out of favor.

Most older guys haven't!

 

[WR Moore]

Most older guys haven't!

But the older you get, the less enthusiastic you might be about them. Recoil can change from acceptable to uncomfortable to health threatening.

While those X-ray pics are interesting, without accompanying medical records, exactly what they represent is questionable. I note apparent pellets lodged in muscle tissue above the clavicles in picture 1.

 

[Rastoff]

The same debate rages every time shotguns are mentioned.
I would be willing to bet that if the guy with the x-ray below was still mobile, he sure as hell didn't stick around for another dose of the same!

The problem with this picture is that it's 2 dimensional. If you look critically at the pic and correlate the side pic with the back pic, you can see that this person was shot in the back and none of the pellets penetrated through the skin. In the skin yes, but not through. I'm positive this guy was not only mobile, but a viable threat if he was a bad guy. I don't know where this pic came from, but it looks like a hunter who got shot in the back.

Apparently........You have never shot a #4 Turkey load.

I haven't. So what?


Some perspective:

I'll take the 30 cal stuff for self-defense every time.

 

[Sirex1975]

I too have heard the shotguns have been flying off the shelves. The local places around here say it, and my uncle, who owns a gun store confirmed it by his store. My go to is a Mossberg 500, converted to some 590 upgrades. My wife and daughter both have 18.5" Mossberg 500E shotguns in .410 because they don't like 12G. Both have Winchester PDX1, Hornady critical defense, and Federal 000 buckshot loads ready to go. My ready load was Federal #1 LEO, but they stopped making it I think, so now I use Federal 13200 shells. My favorite shotgun to shoot is my Tristar Tec12 (Benelli M3 clone). Got it cheap, and I treat it like a rental car on a road course.

 

[serger]

I've read this whole string and note folks getting their panties
wadded by shot size. For most in house uses I see, the shot
column would only open up to about 7 inches in a cylinder
bored gun. I "think" that would be dead adversary if you are
using a 12 ga. Even with number eights you'd have good results
I "think".

I "know" to get good results using marginal loads you have to
aim the shotgun like a rifle to put the 7" pattern on target. I
"know" you have to identify the target prior to pulling the trigger.

If I'm in error, please educate me.

 

[Borderboss]

I've read this whole string and note folks getting their panties
wadded by shot size. For most in house uses I see, the shot
column would only open up to about 7 inches in a cylinder
bored gun. I "think" that would be dead adversary if you are
using a 12 ga. Even with number eights you'd have good results
I "think".

I "know" to get good results using marginal loads you have to
aim the shotgun like a rifle to put the 7" pattern on target. I
"know" you have to identify the target prior to pulling the trigger.

If I'm in error, please educate me.

I "think" that's already happened in previous posts. Please start from the top.

 

[WR Moore]

Birdshot is intended for use on small furry & feathered critters with rather fragile bone structure and vital organs close to the skin. The human body has a most robust thoracic bone structure and vital organs are much deeper in the body than said small critters. More to the point, a human is vastly more capable of inflicting fatal and/or serious bodily injury.

If you don't understand the difference in the problem, I doubt any of us are going to be able to educate you.

You also don't seem to grasp that you need good shot placement with fully capable loads of any type to achieve a stop.

Quoting Clint Smith: "It's your gunfight, lose it any way you want."

 

[Rastoff]

For most in house uses I see, the shot column would only open up to about 7 inches in a cylinder
bored gun. I "think" that would be dead adversary if you are
using a 12 ga.

If I'm in error, please educate me.

OK, let's try...

A shot pattern of about 7" is a little generous for most shotguns. Not unrealistic if you include absolutely every pellet. At least you're thinking reasonably. But this is for a 10 yard shot, most will be a lot closer.

The gauge of the shotgun is irrelevant. 1oz of shot from a 20 gauge is the same as 1oz of shot from a 12 gauge. The difference the gauge makes is in how much shot you can cram into one shell. The short version is you can get more in a 12ga. People think a 20ga kicks less than a 12ga because the standard 20ga load is only 7/8oz where a normal 12ga load is 1 1/8oz. It should be obvious that more mass equals more kick. There's a lot more to it than that, but that's it in a nutshell.

Why does 1 1/8oz of #7.5 not do as much damage as 1oz of 00 Buck?
The answer lies in the individual pellets. Looking at the chart above, we see that a #7.5 is only .095" in diameter while a 00Buck pellet is .33" in diameter. Basically a .1Cal vs a .33Cal projectile. Bigger equals more impact and better energy transfer.

Once the shot leaves the barrel of the shotgun, it starts to spread. Not just sideways, but lengthwise as well. So when it hits the target, each pellet has to be counted as an individual. You don't get better penetration just because there are more of them. The further away, the greater the affect of the spread. The more time between impacts, the greater the chance the target has to recover. At very close range, a yard or less, the 400 pellets from a 1 1/8oz load of #7.5 will do some serious damage. No one doubts that. But a load of 00Buck will do more damage because each individual pellet carries so much more mass.

At 10 yards, it's unlikely that a load of #7.5 shot will kill someone. If shot in the face, it would probably stop them, but if you miss...

At 10 yards, it's very likely that 9 pellets of 00 Buck will hit a vital organ and stop someone.

If you're pointing a shotgun at a bad guy it's because they're threatening your life. If you're life is on the line, do you want a tool that will probably slow the bad guy down? For me, I want the one that will guarantee a stop if I do my job and put a round on target.

 

[moncoacp]

IMO, 20 gauge enough, but watch # of rounds. Some Mossberg youth models only hold 2 for a max of 3. If played safe, would only have 2. Not much if the shooter is inexperienced. I have a Remington 870 Express that holds 4, 5 max.

 

[serger]

Rastoff,

Thanks for the clarification. It's much appreciated.

 

[crazyphil]

Thanks all, for the suggestions. Daughter is an experienced and well
trained shooter (by me). Think she is leaning toward the Shock Wave,
and doubt she will have any problems handling it. I am strongly suggesting she try one before she buys.