But the bad guy did stop what he was doing when he was shot, so in my book it did the job.
Shotguns and ammo for home defense
- Thread starter CraigG58
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But the bad guy did stop what he was doing when he was shot, so in my book it did the job.
After shooting deer with a 3" 00 buckshot load and finding the pellets on the opposite side underneath the skin, I'm comfortable with using 2 3/4 00 loads inside.
A person can wind up dead worrying about liabilities after the shot. The point is, is to survive the encounter.
A person can wind up dead worrying about liabilities after the shot. The point is, is to survive the encounter.
I keep an 870 20 ga loaded with buckshot. 00, #1, #4, I don't care which. Either will do the job.
No birdshot here. And I disagree with a handgun over the shotgun. A shotgun is not a search and destroy tool. You let the bad guy come to you.
It doesn't hurt to have a plan also. Know where your shoot/no shoot zones are if any. Outside and down the hall from our bedroom is a rock fireplace. No lead going through there.
No birdshot here. And I disagree with a handgun over the shotgun. A shotgun is not a search and destroy tool. You let the bad guy come to you.
It doesn't hurt to have a plan also. Know where your shoot/no shoot zones are if any. Outside and down the hall from our bedroom is a rock fireplace. No lead going through there.
RJJ 1971
Member
Trunk gun - HR Pardner Pump 12 gauge (6 + 1 capacity). Loaded with #7 shot bird shot.
HD gun - Maverick 88 Pump 12 gauge (7 +1 capacity). Loaded with #7 shot bird shot.
5 shell side saddles on both.
HD gun - Maverick 88 Pump 12 gauge (7 +1 capacity). Loaded with #7 shot bird shot.
5 shell side saddles on both.
cyphertext
US Veteran
If you go to about the 5:30 mark in the vid below, they shoot birdshot into ballistics gel. The #8 penetrates 4" to 5", and the number 4 goes about 7"... both well short of the 13" recommended by the FBI.
If you watch the whole vid, you will see them shoot through some ribs into a piece of pork shoulder. While they seem to be impressed by the carnage, it truly shows that birdshot runs out of oomph at exactly the point that it needs to be able to penetrate internal organs. Otherwise it is just a nasty, shallow wound that may not stop an attack.
Think of it this way... if birdshot was a magical projectile that could incapacitate a bad guy reliably, yet not penetrate walls, wouldn't police departments use it?
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97sjv11yesc"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97sjv11yesc[/ame]
If you watch the whole vid, you will see them shoot through some ribs into a piece of pork shoulder. While they seem to be impressed by the carnage, it truly shows that birdshot runs out of oomph at exactly the point that it needs to be able to penetrate internal organs. Otherwise it is just a nasty, shallow wound that may not stop an attack.
Think of it this way... if birdshot was a magical projectile that could incapacitate a bad guy reliably, yet not penetrate walls, wouldn't police departments use it?
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97sjv11yesc"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97sjv11yesc[/ame]
I would not loop a short piece of rope around my neck and jump from a high place. I will not try to clear a building. Neither one is conducive to a long life. If someone is in my house I can get out or wait and let them find me. Larry
Unless I'm misunderstanding something, the part beginning at around 02:30 looks like a pretty nasty wound to me for a single shot, let alone if he used 5 rounds, which I doubt would be necessary to shut the target completely down. Plus, that's exactly what I'm after, as the shot does not penetrate the drywall behind it at all even though the meat extremely close to it is hammered.
As for the latter part of the video, I guess I must be missing something there as well. What are they getting at, shooting bad guys through walls? That's exactly what I'm trying to avoid.
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cyphertext
US Veteran
You are totally misunderstanding. Where they shoot the meat, the shot is stopped in the meat... where it would fall short of being able to hit an internal organ.
When they shot the gelatin, the video shows that the bird shot penetrated 7" max... and that was using the #4 shot. FBI ballistics gel testing recommends a minimum of 13" penetration in the gel to reliably hit internal organs.
Basically, bird shot makes a shallow wound. While it looks nasty, it does not incapacitate an attacker reliably.
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I'm not sure why birdshot v. buckshot for home defense is being debated. Birdshot is for birds and bird-sized animals. Buckshot is for bucks and buck-sized animals. There's a reason why they have those names.
If you're looking for a shotgun load that will reliably stop a human intruder but not penetrate an interior wall, well ... you may have to invent it, based on what I've seen in testing of frangible and other specialty loads. I don't think physics is on your side.
Regardless, you make your choices and you live with the results.
If you're looking for a shotgun load that will reliably stop a human intruder but not penetrate an interior wall, well ... you may have to invent it, based on what I've seen in testing of frangible and other specialty loads. I don't think physics is on your side.
Regardless, you make your choices and you live with the results.
I use a Benelli M1 Super 90 tactical 18" bbl. I added a tube extension which gives me 8 shells of 2-3/4" 12 ga. and installed a compensator choke tube. It's the fastest, high capacity, relatively low recoil shotgun I've come across and will grab that before anything given the chance. That's why you have a handgun next to bed... To allow you to reach the 12 gauge and cover. People talk about offensive tactics and being able to shoot an intruder. I never understood that. I'm getting to my shotgun and taking cover... Not going after them. If they want to attack me, I'm hidden and use the angles/walls to my advantage. I guess if you need to get to your kids or family in another room that would be different. I also understand it's hard to turn a corner with a shotgun or swing direction, but I have more confidence in a shouldered shotgun than a pistol. I think most agree if you had to engage someone, I'd rather have a shouldered weapon than a handgun.
Now if Benelli would make the M1 or M2 platform in a 18" tactical version in a 20ga. I'd buy one in a heartbeat! And I think most people and women would too. I'd prefer a 20ga over the 12ga in a quick fire situation.
Now if Benelli would make the M1 or M2 platform in a 18" tactical version in a 20ga. I'd buy one in a heartbeat! And I think most people and women would too. I'd prefer a 20ga over the 12ga in a quick fire situation.
Yes, I can see how the gelatin differs.
No offense, but when they shot the meat at 02:30 the #8 shot completely blew through the ribs and the pork shoulder, with a sizable hole in each. I don't see where the shot is being stopped in the meat at all.
JJEH
Member
I have a S&W Model 3000 Police and use NSI Law Enforcement Buckshot and Hornady 00 Buckshot Critical Defense.
Now, I haven't used it in a HD scenario and I hope that I never have to but that's what the shotgun is loaded with.
Now, I haven't used it in a HD scenario and I hope that I never have to but that's what the shotgun is loaded with.
cyphertext
US Veteran
Did it penetrate the sheet rock? To hit vitals, you have to get through layers of clothing, fat, muscle, and bone. Most humans are a little thicker than those pieces of meat they used.
Nobody is saying that birdshot doesn't make a nasty wound. However, an assailant may choose to stop from pain, or he may not. The only way to guarantee that the assailant stops is to physically incapacitate them. That is done by significant blood loss or by damaging internal organs and/or the central nervous system. Bird shot is not guaranteed to have the penetration for that.
Again, I ask, if bird shot was a magical projectile that could reliably stop an assailant but not penetrate sheet rock, wouldn't the police use it?
There obviously was clothing involved, perhaps not the level of fat or muscle you may have in mind, and that's fair enough. As for bone, go and watch what it did to those ribs again. I think it's great that the shot created that amount of damage without flying into a room behind it.
If they thought there were members of their family or innocent bystanders behind the bad guy, especially at close range, I'd pray to God that they wouldn't.
cyphertext
US Veteran
But that is the thing... it didn't create that much damage. It looks far more impressive on a piece of meat than it would be on an actual human target. Again, the shot was stopped by the meat and didn't go into the sheet rock. I know that you think that is beneficial, but think about the heart or the lungs being behind that layer of fat, tissue, and muscle... the pellets wouldn't have made it to them. I'm not going to chance that the intruder will stop just because the wound hurts... I want to incapacitate the intruder.
Think about it this way... do you know of any bird shot loads marketed as self defense loads? Do you know of any professional, reputable trainers that advocate bird shot for self defense?
I'm pretty much done with this... I don't think you are going to change your mind, and I know I am not going to change mine.
I thought 4 buck
I know people never agree, but I've heard many people say 4 buck is the best for defense. At close ranges (in the house) smaller shot will do a credible job. I draw the line at birdshot, which can still do a lot of damage at close range, but more superficial.
I know people never agree, but I've heard many people say 4 buck is the best for defense. At close ranges (in the house) smaller shot will do a credible job. I draw the line at birdshot, which can still do a lot of damage at close range, but more superficial.
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Rem 870 with #1 Buck is my choice. An old Ithaca M37 is also a great choice and if on a budget the Mossberg will get it done too. IMHO as long as you don't live in an Apartment or Town House with attached common walls, #1 Buckshot is the way to go. Close living quarters might dictate Turkey Shot but not light Bird Shot IMHO.
I have a Remington Model 870 Wingmaster with a 20"(?) deer barrel for home defense. I will use either 12 ga 00 Buck or #4 Buckshot. If someone enters my home, it is after defeating double locks, an alarm system, and 2 labs. From that point on, I will not be playing, I will stop the threat.
I'm sorry you feel that way, I'm certainly not out to change anyone's mind. I just want to explore and discuss what folks are using and/or their opinions on the subject, and I do appreciate the many responses. That's the entire reason I started this thread. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with someone during a discussion, and of course that goes both ways.
Quite a bit of these responses seem to be personal preferences and experiences according to individual situations, and of course that's fine. I don't think that there's one ultimate indisputable "correct" answer that covers everyone's requirements.
I'm not sure if Roy Huntington would be considered one, but I did find this video interesting:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrM5U2kGQCc[/ame]
Anyway, I thank you much for your responses.
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