The 320 is not superior to any of the older Sig products. Cheaper to make just makes it cheaper not superior. The 226/228/229 Sigs were exceptional handguns, the 320 is just flimsy junk and it's proving itself such.
SIG P320 Discharges?
- Thread starter biku324
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eclayton
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I've been waiting for someone to make that argument. You are right, the incidents have the look of a statistical outlier effect requiring a bewildering number of variables to come together just right to yield an unintended discharge. As such all the lab testing in the world won't reproduce it. The only way to see it is to build millions of units and put them in the field—with enough pistols and enough hours of holster time, the tiny statistical outliers begin to be seen. That such discharges happen is beyond dispute; they've been captured on video. That they are possible under any circumstances represents a flawed design. I can't imagine any police administrator willing to entertain all the mumbo jumbo engineering arguments telling him not to believe his own lying eyes. The military, on the other hand, I think is more likely to switch over to condition 3 carry and wait (and pray) for some technical fix before they overturn their whole supply chain and maintenance train to field a different pistol. Even the M9 is not an option anymore. When I retired last year it was already years since any M9 parts had been available, and we were retiring them one at a time as they broke.
DRankin
Member
Doesn't it always come down to convivence or dollars?
And maybe there is a healthy dose of pride in the equation.
How many injuries/deaths does it take to overcome such inertia?
LVSteve
Member
In logistics speak, cheaper is superior. Welcome to the 21st century where budgets rule. The Reagan era of "just do it and we'll worry about the money later" is long gone.
I have, as I said above, a P320 Carry (Wilson Combat modified, BTW, with manual safety added by Sig, so M18 config), and a P226 XCarry Legion SAO. (Hey, I like "Gucci guns," as friend Biku says South African contractors he worked with put it.)
I can say unequivocally that my 320, WC not withstanding, is not as tight as my 226. No where near. Sure the 320 is slightly lighter. It is a polymer frame. (Whether that is good or bad is a matter of opinion, of course.)
Lower bore axis? Really? Maybe. I have not compared directiy. Pretty close I think.
Cheaper to manufacture? Sure, I believe that.
I last shot the 320 at my range last Friday. Gonna shoot my new 226 there tomorrow. I'm curious to see if and how the shooting experience differs.
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In the Sig owners manual,
In bold print. Is this something new? Or has it always been there?
Here too,
In bold print. Is this something new? Or has it always been there?
Here too,
A dead Air Man.
Except the 320 only had the trigger pulled 1 mm. The Glock he took it back until almost firing.
It only blocks the trigger and not the sear.
You may want to wait until the investigation is completed before you jump to contusions.
And yes I know it is conclusions.
And yes I know it is conclusions.
The M17/18 contract was in 2017 with first batch to be delivered by 2022. The drop safety issue was found and corrected before the militray guns were issued. It went viral when people found out the civilian P320s had the same issue and had not been fixed. SIG's voluntary upgrade for them came later. The AFOSI passed on the M18 and went Glock 19/26. In 2021 the Army gave Glock a $15 million contract for about 9,000 new Glocks. That's called a hint.
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They are still around. The last new M9s were delivered to DOD in 2021, four years safter the M17/18 contract in 2017. When the M18 was paused by the USAF last week, there was an E-6 armed with an M9 on the local base. So, some are still around, and some are still qualified to carry them. But it is unusual and not an option most places for most troops.
The thumb safety keeps the trigger from moving, it does not block the striker from moving. The Army carries on safe, the USAF only uses the safety when loading/unloading at the clearing barrel, carries off safe. The Army did have a UID when an M17 on safe in the holster was bumped and it went off wounding the soldier in the foot. The gun was examined and found to be OK and the army said there was no cause for concern. Still does. There have been other UIDs and injuries in the Army and USMC with the M17/18 but the USAF is the only one to "pause" use, and just some commands, not everybody everywhere.
Howardeye
Member
Is this a S&W forum?
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Glock triggere certainly didn't start this. I'm 60 I've heard it my whole life.
I'm an old Nam vet with two hearts and never had indoctrination about triggers . We had safeties . I did watch an M60 gunner put his foot over a paddy dyke and his 1911 had an uncommanded discharge . Our 1911s were in use since ww2 . I have several firearms with trigger safeties , but prefer double single ie Baretta px4 . My range SIG is a p210 . 5th marines , I Corps 69/70 .
Navy vet
Member
I really liked his analogy with the car, if 1, 2 or 5 fail in a million, that is enough for me. Don't own a P320, but if I did, it would be a Safe Queen. I'd doubt if anyone were trying to sell their P320 right now would get much for it. Maybe the Sig Fan Boys will take advantage of the rush of sales.
Navy vet
Member
Hmmmmm Have you watched ANY of the Vids out there where the weapon was holstered and NO hands on weapon? Try asking that question to the Airman's Family. Hickok45 said it best, If 1 fails in a million is enough proof to me to not wear it! Let us know if you carry the P320 daily?
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The same feature (cruciform trigger block) that makes the Glock safer, allows it to operate in full auto mode with disconnect rather than slam fire, ie the sear is not released until the slide is in full battery mode.
BIGDOC
US Veteran
There's no problem with the P320, it's political. Anyone can make anyone or anything look bad in the eye of the public. Pissed off people who didn't get their way and crying like little.... The gun cannot go off by itself, and with society the way it is now there seems to be more un-educated people with firearms today than ever before. Look around you next time you are at the range, take a minute and scope the people around you. I entered the Marine Corp using the issued .45 and saw accidental discharges with that firearm, we transitioned to the Beretta and again their were accidental discharges in other branches also. Proper training and discipline is all thats needed, not a lax attitude with a bullet in the chamber.
BIGDOC
US Veteran
People like you are the problem.
It couldn't possibly be the gun. Right?
How sad for you brother. People have died. People have been hurt.
Plenty of evidence has been produced. And you still defend the gun and blame the user.
And worse yet, you have no proof that it's political. Politics doesn't make guns go off by themselves.
The only factual evidence to date is the P320 fires only with trigger pull. Inserting screws into the action and partially pulling the trigger with your finger and twisting the slide to make it "fire" are not proof.
As of today this is our gun clubs response to the P320.
Our Chief Instructor, and I have discussed the ARPC response to this potential problem. AS OF TODAY, we are allowing members to decide whether or not to continue using their P320s at the range. Disciplines will make determinations according to their governing bodies. The decision and liability for using a P320, or any other firearm, at ARPC is completely on you. You are responsible for the decisions you make. We will monitor this issue and will modify our position accordingly.
Executive Director
Well thought out I think.
Our Chief Instructor, and I have discussed the ARPC response to this potential problem. AS OF TODAY, we are allowing members to decide whether or not to continue using their P320s at the range. Disciplines will make determinations according to their governing bodies. The decision and liability for using a P320, or any other firearm, at ARPC is completely on you. You are responsible for the decisions you make. We will monitor this issue and will modify our position accordingly.
Executive Director
Well thought out I think.
DRankin
Member
Sigh............................
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