SIG P320 Discharges?

[Kanewpadle]

The link was posted as information. There was no defense of Sig.

I ran the FA program at my SO for several years. In the early '90's I was tasked with investigation of Glock for a possible lawsuit of their product. There were examples of discharges from a PD in Oregon. I contacted the FTU of that agency and determined there was some fault by Glock. There was fault due to the agency protocols. At that time Glock sold pistols without mandating armorer training and transition training. The agency did not do the annual inspections and some of the practices were harmful to the pistols. Glock came to the agency trained armorers and provided Instructor Workshops for the staff. When Glock obtained contracts for guns they also mandated training to the agencies. The problems disappeared.

If you've been around for a while you might remember that HK contracted with NJ State Police issuing the P7 "Squeeze Cocker". They had numerous ND because the pistol wasn't "de-cocked" during re-holstering. Gun problem or training problem?

Anyone that ran a firearms program for an agency realizes that the majority of officers are not "gun folks". The serious shooters normally ended up being the instructors. Repetitive training using the Four Rules sometimes fixes the "least attentive" students.

Back to Sig. Regarding having "proof" of discharges on video, what is the proof? Can you see if the operator had a finger on the trigger? Some other object in the holster? A defective holster (Sherpa type). I'm not saying there isn't a problem, but we all want to know the cause-and the fix.

I have three P320's, all have been parked in my safe until more is known. Other friends, that are still in uniform are still carrying their P320's and have for years. They have not had any problems.

I've noted several agencies and training schools have prohibited use of the P320. My concern is what is the cause? Operator, equipment or the pistol. My hope is a solution can be found soon.

G2

Not enough is known because of Sig.

Up until the P320 fiasco, I had nothing against them. I admired them for a quality product.

Years ago I owned a P220 and 226. Both great guns. Outstanding actually. But I disliked DA/SA triggers and switched to Glock.

Then the drop issue came about with the P320. Instead of issuing a recall like any other manufacturer. They suggested a voluntary “upgrade”. Think about that for a minute.

An upgrade is offered to a product which is fine functionally but will perform better with an upgrade.

To use the word upgrade is not an admission that something is wrong. That was their intention all along.

And they have done the same with the ND issue. They continually deny that a problem exists even though there is ample evidence.

They claim that “agenda driven parties” have launched attacks against them. Agenda driven parties? So the military, law enforcement, and the average citizen are all conspiring against them?

And the worst part is that they blame ALL of the “unintended discharges” on the customer. Really!?

So every single ND was the fault of a careless police officer? A military member? Or an average citizen? I don’t think so. Not all of them.

There is definitely a problem. And we may never know what that problem is. Something is wrong. Something is fishy. And I’m beginning to wonder if Sig actually knows what the problem is.

And worst yet, how many more people have to get shot before something serious is done?

 

[robertrwalsh]

SIG is blaming these on operator error or inappropriate holsters. There are probably right in at least some of the 20 plus cases currently in legal action.

 

[Kanewpadle]

SIG is blaming these on operator error or inappropriate holsters. There are probably right in at least some of the 20 plus cases currently in legal action.

Could be. But not all. Which means a problem still exists.

Where were these problems before the P320? With Glock, M&P and others?

Sure there were problems. But not on this scale. Not with so many agencies involved.

 

[GnarlsR2]

Since the drop issue upgrade has been done, has ANYONE been able to demonstrate, unequivocally and verifiably prove, that the P320 can discharge a round without the trigger being pulled?

 

[ajaxinfinitum]

Shooting since 75. Owned p320; 365xl for about 5 yrs. Not one problem.

 

[history-fan]

Ian's take on the issue. Thinks it may be do to stacking machining tolerances.

A Thoughtful & Nuanced Take on SIG's P320 Nightmare

 

[Capt29]

I have a few 320s. I was retired before they became a thing. I do have some observations however. I wonder if all the unintended discharges (UDs?) were in a "hard" holster as opposed to a leather holster. The hard plastic holsters are a relitively new item, and I cannot help but wonder. There is apparently no information on the type of holsters involved.
With the military, the holster can vary. Some units can use other than the issue holster. Also although the military does have a "safety on" rule, I spent 26+ years in the Army and USCG. I know what it takes to make anything "soldier proof", primarily an act of God. After 30 years as a big city cop, I also know what it takes to make something "cop proof" (another act of God).
There is an answer, no one has found it just yet. If it is a SIG defect, they should go out of business.
I am not concerned here with drop testing, that is another issue, although handguns should be reasonably drop proof.

 

[SFury79]

Sig is now being managed by the same person who almost destroyed Kimber. All the issues that Kimber had under Cohen's leadership are issues at Sig now. Combine that with poor QC of an imperfect design, the 320, and you have the issues being seen.

The issue of tolerance stacking has been brought up by various people. Not just from Ian.

With the way Cohen is once again treating the customers, I would avoid all things Sig. At least until he's gone, and new management proves they actually care about putting out a good product. I'm not anti-Sig, I'm anti-Cohen who failed upwards and treats people like crap.

 

[bph9]

Glock leg is negligence of the user, Sig leg is negligence of the company.

I disagree, its Glock's fault they built a totally unsafe design. A 1911 with hammer down does not produce Glock Leg and even in the cocked and locked mode it will not go off when holstered. Again it is Glock's fault, not the users, as an accidental snag of the trigger on your shirt tail or on a fold in the holster will set it off faster than a cat can jump off of a hot tin roof. But the Glock Fan Boy's refuse to admit to reality and the truth about a totally unsafe design. They will tell you with a straight face, "It has not happened to me and never will because I will be lucky".

 

[Onomea]

Since the drop issue upgrade has been done, has ANYONE been able to demonstrate, unequivocally and verifiably prove, that the P320 can discharge a round without the trigger being pulled?

My understanding is no. Not without damaging parts to deliberately get them out of spec.

 

[Onomea]

I have a few 320s. I was retired before they became a thing. I do have some observations however. I wonder if all the unintended discharges (UDs?) were in a "hard" holster as opposed to a leather holster. The hard plastic holsters are a relitively new item, and I cannot help but wonder. There is apparently no information on the type of holsters involved.
With the military, the holster can vary. Some units can use other than the issue holster. Also although the military does have a "safety on" rule, I spent 26+ years in the Army and USCG. I know what it takes to make anything "soldier proof", primarily an act of God. After 30 years as a big city cop, I also know what it takes to make something "cop proof" (another act of God).
There is an answer, no one has found it just yet. If it is a SIG defect, they should go out of business.
I am not concerned here with drop testing, that is another issue, although handgubns should be reasonably drop proof.

I don't think exact numbers exist, but it has been pointed out by Sig that some (many?) of the LEO "uncommanded discharges" have happened in holsters designed to accommodate P320s with lights attached.

These holsters, Sig explains, allow entry to the trigger area when the gun is holstered. (One example given is two officers bumping holsters when dealing with a suspect and one officer's keychain enters the other officers holster causing the discharge.)

 

[Oldsalt66]

This particular topic is within my professional wheelhouse.

Spontaneous P320 discharges have never been duplicated or replicated under controlled laboratory conditions, (not even by a plaintiff's paid technical experts), in examples alleged to have experienced self discharge resulting in injury and lawsuits.

Is there something intrinsically defective in the design and/or manufacture process?

Beats me, but any inherent fault needs to be replicated under observed and scientifically controlled conditions in order to provide verification, and the onus to do so falls squarely on those making allegations.

 

[65-2x2]

I own a 320, I just built my holster for it with and open toe. Problem solved.

 

[biku324]

At the end of the day, the cause of UD of issued pistols in standard, high quality holsters in normal duty (MIL or LE) use does not matter - other pistols don't have the problem.

It's one thing if an individual chooses to carry this pistol; it's quite another to order others to carry one.

 

[walternash]

Lots of comments and anecdotal reports on this. Sig's strident denials vs. a growing number of reports.

What is troubling to me is Sig's lobbying through an immunity statute in their state and advising the Army to make the carry protocol "Do not carry with a round in the chamber."

If life was all good, maybe no need for these two things.

I have several 320s and put one in my daughter's hands. All are parked for now.

 

[Oldsalt66]

Lots of comments and anecdotal reports on this. Sig's strident denials vs. a growing number of reports.

What is troubling to me is Sig's lobbying through an immunity statute in their state and advising the Army to make the carry protocol "Do not carry with a round in the chamber."

If life was all good, maybe no need for these two things.

I have several 320s and put one in my daughter's hands. All are parked for now.

The statute doesn't render SIG immune from lawsuits, nor, in fact, does it protect SIG to the exclusion of other gun manufacturers; it merely prevents lawsuits against gun manufacturers based on the lack of certain features also widely lacked by the manufacturers of other widely sold firearms.

"As written, the new law explicitly states that gun makers cannot be sued for products lacking magazine disconnects, which prevent guns from firing if their magazines have been removed; loaded-chamber indicators that notify gun owners if a round is chambered; smart technology that ensures a gun can only be operated by authorized users; or an “external mechanical safety” like the “tabbed trigger safety” found on Glock-style pistols."

New Hampshire Enacts Immunity Law for Sig Sauer

State lawmakers said they wanted to stem the flow of lawsuits against the gun maker related to its P320 pistols.

smokinggun.org

For example, the lack of a thumb safety, or magazine disconnect.

The statute does not apply to lawsuits that claim a firearm is defective when it does not function as intended or if it violates existing laws.

Oh, the horror.

I blame the sensationalist gun tuber industry for the promulgation of misinformation and falsehood regarding the statute.

 

[GnarlsR2]

Analyzing the science of a discharge without the trigger being pulled is simple basic Laws of Physics.

If the “problem” cannot be duplicated or created, any other condition described as a spontaneous discharge is unsubstantiated conjecture, speculation, hypothetical theory, imagination, and Bravo Sierra.

If the holster is a causal factor in a spontaneous discharge, why are there 100s of thousands of the M17, M18, P320 being carried by multiple branches of our military, law enforcement, Canadian, Australian, Danish, and Armed Forces of Ukraine, Royal Thai Police, West Midlands Police in UK, Elite Units of Spanish National Police and Special Forces, being carried in different holsters with zero spontaneous discharges?

 

[Onomea]

What is troubling to me is Sig's ... advising the Army to make the carry protocol "Do not carry with a round in the chamber."

I don't think they advised the Army specifically not to carry with a chambered round. I think they revised the owners manual provided with each P320 gun sold to state this.

I think it's a legal CYA thing, like Ruger's barrels being inscribed with "Watch out! Guns are dangerous!," or whatever they say. Whether justified or not — leaving that aside for the moment —Sig is a big target for lawsuits these days, and its lawyers, I speculate, are advising it to be overly conservative.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

Look at all the foreign countries using the P320 and you don't hear about AD's. To each his own.

From my experience in the Military and Police most people don’t confess to a Negligent Discharge of a Duty Weapon unless witnessed by a straight arrow supervisor.

On my Police Department it is a two day suspension without pay. So $725.00 and if you are on probation it is cause for termination.

 

[HardToHandle]

The statute doesn't render SIG immune from lawsuits, nor, in fact, does it protect SIG to the exclusion of other gun manufacturers; it merely prevents lawsuits against gun manufacturers based on the lack of certain features also widely lacked by the manufacturers of other widely sold firearms.

Which other firearm manufacturers are you familiar within the Granite State that this bar to plaintiff action benefits?

I am not familiar with any significant firearms manufacturers who are headquartered in New Hampshire besides SIG. I do look forward to learning however.

Spontaneous P320 discharges have never been duplicated or replicated under controlled laboratory conditions, (not even by a plaintiff's paid technical experts), in examples alleged to have experienced self discharge resulting in injury and lawsuits.

As well, your comments seem to ignore the U.S. Army’s M17/18 testing, which of course was able to document and readily reproduce uncommanded firing in the P320 platform. I would believe that dozens of taxpayer-funded testing iterations in a laboratory setting would be acceptable, correct?

To wit, see page 183 from the Directorate Operational Test and Evaluation, Office of Secretary of Defense - https://www.dote.osd.mil/Portals/97/pub/reports/FY2017/army/2017mhs.pdf

Edit: Images of text from the Army report, which found uncommanded discharges and noted a history of trigger group manufacturing issues.