SIG P320 Discharges?

[patjkshor]

Which other firearm manufacturers are you familiar within the Granite State that this bar to plaintiff action benefits?

I am not familiar with any significant firearms manufacturers who are headquartered in New Hampshire besides SIG. I do look forward to learning however.



As well, your comments seem to ignore the U.S. Army’s M17/18 testing, which of course was able to document and readily reproduce uncommanded firing in the P320 platform. I would believe that dozens of taxpayer-funded testing iterations in a laboratory setting would be acceptable, correct?

To wit, see page 183 from the Directorate Operational Test and Evaluation, Office of Secretary of Defense - https://www.dote.osd.mil/Portals/97/pub/reports/FY2017/army/2017mhs.pdf

Edit: Images of text from the Army report, which found uncommanded discharges and noted a history of trigger group manufacturing issues.

Why didn’t the ARMY pick up these issues at initial testing. They were so anti Beretta they barred them from competition. They needed guns with different chassis so the DEI and unfit
Recruits could get their little hands around grip.
320 not a great design with high heavy slide causing barrel slip when firing. Worst than 1911.

 

[patjkshor]

HardToHandle said:

I am not familiar with any significant firearms manufacturers who are headquartered in New Hampshire besides SIG. I do look forward to learning however.




Ruger isn't headquartered in New Hampshire - your own quote contradicts that.

Regardless, as noted the bill protects manufacturers no matter where they are headquartered or domiciled.



No dog in this 320 fight but I was affected by the bolt bump firing recall on the Sig Cross. Can't blame that one on holsters or being dropped. I can't duplicate the issue since the trip back to Sig, but it isn't the first hunting rifle I reach for any longer.

So many quality handguns available in the market free of controversy. I don't see the upside of owning the 320 having tried one out. It's nothing special.

I have a relatively new Ruger SP 102, printed on the revolver is Newport NH. USA. Customer service is also NH. Just saying!

 

[burneyr]

Headquartered was the question not manufacturing location. Only some models of Ruger revolvers are serviced in NH. Customer service is ran out of Mayodan NC.

 

[robertrwalsh]

If I recall correctly (my info is stale) with the CA Highway Patrol the first nd gets you two weeks without pay. The second nd gets you a job at McDonalds.

 

[LVSteve]

Sig fixing the drop issue with an "upgrade" is not a surprise. "Upgrade" is what all manufacturers of anything mechanical use to avoid using the "R" and "F" words (recall, fault) because of corporate liability.

I suspect the Army does not see the holster discharges because of the way the required safety works.

 

[BIGDOC]

Well I will not be getting rid of mine, I shoot them very proficently and have fun doing so and never hesitate to carry one of my 320 AXG's.

 

[Onomea]

Sig fixing the drop issue with an "upgrade" is not a surprise. "Upgrade" is what all manufacturers of anything mechanical use to avoid using the "R" and "F" words (recall, fault) because of corporate liability.

I suspect the Army does not see the holster discharges because of the way the required safety works.

There's something like seven reported uncommanded discharges with the M17/M18 configuration. To me the most perplexing one is at a Marine base in Okinawa where a civilian guard reportedly had an uncommanded discharge with his holstered M18 that in addition to witnesses attesting the safety was on and that he did not touch the gun, was caught on video. (The video, however, remains unreleased.)

Without reviewing this whole thread, IIRC, this incident is cited above and linked to the USMC official incident report.

 

[Frailer]

Striker fired pistol are mostly cocked guns without safeties. Need I say more!!

This is a fair point.

We, the “gun community,” are an odd lot. In some ways we have become over-the-top when it comes to safety (such as the folks who lose their minds when a YouTuber doesn’t clear a firearm on-camera or when someone “flags” themselves or someone else with a firearm with no magazine and the action open); in other ways we have become much too complacent.

Most striker-fired arms are inherently more dangerous to the shooter than other designs. Period. With all due respect to the “my trigger finger is my safety” crowd, few people would carry a 1911 with the hammer back, the safety off, and the grip safety pinned, yet many striker-fired guns are roughly equivalent.

A Glock’s striker isn’t fully cocked at rest, yet on the rare occasions I carry a Glock IWB it is equipped with a striker control device (Tau’s original “the gadget”) that I use to block the striker in the event the trigger encounters an obstacle while holstering.

The 320’s design takes the striker fired concept to the bleeding edge of acceptable safety. There is no trigger “dingus,” the striker is fully-cocked at rest, and the striker block is a folded tab of unmachined, stamped metal. The safety (when the gun is so equipped) disables the trigger but doesn’t block the sear.

Because of the nature of this design the level of safety is more dependent than most on the quality of parts manufacture and subsequent QC. If a substandard part slips through the cracks the consequences could be serious.

I am of the opinion that the overwhelming majority of 320s are as safe in practice as othrr striker-fired semiautos. But I am also of the opinion that a tiny fraction are downright dangerous.

The odds of your 320 being one of the latter is one-in-a-very-large-number. Whether or not these odds are acceptable is up to the consumer. You spends your money, and you takes your chances.

 

[Onomea]

This is a fair point.

We, the “gun community,” are an odd lot. In some ways we have become over-the-top when it comes to safety (such as the folks who lose their minds when a YouTuber doesn’t clear a firearm on-camera or when someone “flags” themselves or someone else with a firearm with no magazine and the action open); in other ways we have become much too complacent.

Most striker-fired arms are inherently more dangerous to the shooter than other designs. Period. With all due respect to the “my trigger finger is my safety” crowd, few people would carry a 1911 with the hammer back, the safety off, and the grip safety pinned, yet many striker-fired guns are roughly equivalent.

A Glock’s striker isn’t fully cocked at rest, yet on the rare occasions I carry a Glock IWB it is equipped with a striker control device (Tau’s original “the gadget”) that I use to block the striker in the event the trigger encounters an obstacle while holstering.

The 320’s design takes the striker fired concept to the bleeding edge of acceptable safety. There is no trigger “dingus,” the striker is fully-cocked at rest, and the striker block is a folded tab of unmachined, stamped metal. The safety (when the gun is so equipped) disables the trigger but doesn’t block the sear.

Because of the nature of this design the level of safety is more dependent than most on the quality of parts manufacture and subsequent QC. If a substandard part slips through the cracks the consequences could be serious.

I am of the opinion that the overwhelming majority of 320s are as safe in practice as othrr striker-fired semiautos. But I am also of the opinion that a tiny fraction are downright dangerous.

The odds of your 320 being one of the latter is one-in-a-very-large-number. Whether or not these odds are acceptable is up to the consumer. You spends your money, and you takes your chances.

Thanks for the thoughtful post, Mark.

Re "The odds of your 320 being one of the latter is one-in-a-very-large-number," what do you think about the inability to replicate in testing the uncommanded discharge failures with the very guns that have had the problem?

 

[CMcDermott]

Why didn’t the ARMY pick up these issues at initial testing. They were so anti Beretta they barred them from competition. They needed guns with different chassis so the DEI and unfit
Recruits could get their little hands around grip.
320 not a great design with high heavy slide causing barrel slip when firing. Worst than 1911.

Because the pistol testing process was never completed by the Army. After the initial testing that is just intended to verify the guns meet all the basic requirements in the RFP SIG offered the Army such a low price to adopt the 320 that the Army simply accepted SIG's offer and selected the 320 over the Glock entry, the only other pistol that passed the initial testing. The functional testing of the guns was never done, this testing is where the current problems should have been detected.

 

[Reddog80]

The thing is there are videos out there showing these discharges. All are law enforcement from surveillance cameras. Officers walking on train platforms or in rollcall room and then suddenly bang! Their gun goes off in their holster with no hands anywhere near the gun. This isn't the first issue with Sig and their manufacturing and quality assurance. Back around 2017-2018 my police department purchased Sig 320's for our SWAT teams. The PD carried Glock 22's. 23's, and even 27's, but the SWAT guys wanted Sigs because all the other SWAT teams carried Sigs and SOPS operators etc. The SWAT teams shoot more than the average officer in training. They shoot several times a month and the rank and file shoot somewhere around twice a year. After approx. 2 months the SWAT teams turned in their Sigs wanting their Glocks back. The Sigs were failing. They had cracks in their slides, and even broken firing pins. This after normal wear and tear. Sig said it was due to bad metallurgy. They offered to replace them, but the teams now had a bad taste in their mouths so the guns were swapped out for Glocks. These obvious problem aside, I think Sig has gotten too big for their britches. I'm retired now and work part-time in a tactical gun store and since Sig got the Army contract we've seen their prices skyrocket, pricing their guns more than their worth. A 365 macro is selling for near $900. You can purchase a quality gun comparable to the 365 Macro for half that money. You put the name Sig on something and the price doubles or even triples. I think they make a decent firearm, but I also think they are afflicted with an illness that affects any manufacturer when they make a product in demand. they get sloppy and their quality control goes way down. Just my 2 cents!

 

[GnarlsR2]

This is a fair point.

We, the “gun community,” are an odd lot. In some ways we have become over-the-top when it comes to safety (such as the folks who lose their minds when a YouTuber doesn’t clear a firearm on-camera or when someone “flags” themselves or someone else with a firearm with no magazine and the action open); in other ways we have become much too complacent.

Most striker-fired arms are inherently more dangerous to the shooter than other designs. Period. With all due respect to the “my trigger finger is my safety” crowd, few people would carry a 1911 with the hammer back, the safety off, and the grip safety pinned, yet many striker-fired guns are roughly equivalent.

A Glock’s striker isn’t fully cocked at rest, yet on the rare occasions I carry a Glock IWB it is equipped with a striker control device (Tau’s original “the gadget”) that I use to block the striker in the event the trigger encounters an obstacle while holstering.

The 320’s design takes the striker fired concept to the bleeding edge of acceptable safety. There is no trigger “dingus,” the striker is fully-cocked at rest, and the striker block is a folded tab of unmachined, stamped metal. The safety (when the gun is so equipped) disables the trigger but doesn’t block the sear.

Because of the nature of this design the level of safety is more dependent than most on the quality of parts manufacture and subsequent QC. If a substandard part slips through the cracks the consequences could be serious.

I am of the opinion that the overwhelming majority of 320s are as safe in practice as othrr striker-fired semiautos. But I am also of the opinion that a tiny fraction are downright dangerous.

The odds of your 320 being one of the latter is one-in-a-very-large-number. Whether or not these odds are acceptable is up to the consumer. You spends your money, and you takes your chances.

"Because of the nature of this design the level of safety is more dependent than most on the quality of parts manufacture and subsequent QC. If a substandard part slips through the cracks the consequences could be serious."

I'm just curious....

Can you describe ANY condition, physical or otherwise, where ANY of the components relative to causing or enabling a chambered round to be fired without the trigger being pulled?

 

[cowboy94916]

After reading this thread, and familiarity of 2 AD's with glocks in our local Sheriffs department years back. Which caused them to go away and be replaced with Smiths. I am questioning the continued ownership of my steyr s9-a1 the only non thumb safety pistol I own. I grew up with 1911 style pistols and feel far more comfortable carrying same.

 

[Frailer]

"Because of the nature of this design the level of safety is more dependent than most on the quality of parts manufacture and subsequent QC. If a substandard part slips through the cracks the consequences could be serious."

I'm just curious....

Can you describe ANY condition, physical or otherwise, where ANY of the components relative to causing or enabling a chambered round to be fired without the trigger being pulled?

"Because of the nature of this design the level of safety is more dependent than most on the quality of parts manufacture and subsequent QC. If a substandard part slips through the cracks the consequences could be serious."

I'm just curious....

Can you describe ANY condition, physical or otherwise, where ANY of the components relative to causing or enabling a chambered round to be fired without the trigger being pulled?

I’m not sure exactly what you’re asking, but I think the answer is “no.”

But if you’re really interested, you can check the YouTube videos from “Three P320’s in a Trenchcoat.” It won’t answer the question of “why,” but it does raise some interesting questions.

Meanwhile, it doesn’t take much imagination to see how the P320’s striker safety block (circled in red below)—which is supposed to stop the striker at the very end of its movement, just prior to emerging from the breech face—could fail should the striker slip off the sear.

 

[GnarlsR2]

"Meanwhile, it doesn’t take much imagination to see how the P320’s striker safety block (circled in red below)—which is supposed to stop the striker at the very end of its movement, just prior to emerging from the breech face—could fail should the striker slip off the sear."

It may be "imagined", but so far has ANYONE been able to duplicate, create, or cause it to happen in any testing?

 

[RebCop]

Since the drop issue upgrade has been done, has ANYONE been able to demonstrate, unequivocally and verifiably prove, that the P320 can discharge a round without the trigger being pulled?

I saw a video of a cop in California where the gun discharged in the holster. Not putting it in or taking it out just sitting in the holster.

 

[Twobravo2]

I had a Sig P320 for years, never had any issues at all. I’ve been in law enforcement my entire life and an instructor for two decades now. Oklahoma Highway Patrol currently issues the P320 and I haven’t heard of any issues with them. I have heard of the other issues nationwide.

I recently put my P320 up for sale on a popular site and for 3 weeks I didn’t event have any clicks or views. I had it priced lower than anyone else’s too. Ended up selling it to an officer at my department. People who have them are all but stuck with them now.

My agency issues the Glock 17, which I like better anyway.

 

[Onomea]

FWIW, ChatGPT sez P320s remain very popular in terms of sales for full size pistols, ranking second behind Glock (17s, IIRC).

 

[Rocketmedic40]

Here’s my take on it: the -320 design pushes too many tolerances too tight for safety.

People are people, and all of us make mistakes. With a Glock or M&P or Taurus, there’s a few ergonomic safeties like the dingus, a mushy trigger, etc. These collectively work to smooth over a host of potential problems and make ands less likely….an imperfect holster fit, something touching the trigger, a failed internal part, etc. A partially-cocked striker defaults to safe if it drops. But the 320 dispenses with all of those mushy maybes in pursuit of a target trigger. And for a target pistol with a very niche audience, that would be fine. But for a service pistol, this is a terrible idea. Holsters where lights and optics are verboten for fear of introducing gaps, a light crisp no-slack trigger…how can a cop trust that their holstered 320 getting banged on a door or wrasseled over won’t go off if something as minor as a light is “enough” to get a gap and an ND?

In my mind, carrying a 320 is like carrying a revolver cocked.

 

[Benton Quest]

A Glock that has not been monkeyed with, will NOT fire unless you (or something) pulls the trigger. Full stop.

The striker is only under partial tension and is not cocked when in cruising mode. If released, it would not have enough inertia to detonate a primer.

The Sig is fully cocked...

How many uncommanded discharges are acceptable from a weapon?

Poor part MIM manufacturing, stacked tolerances, and a nearly criminally deficient management philosophy all add up to bad things.

Maybe your Pinto didn't burst into flames, but it doesn't mean there wasn't a problem.