Single Action Revolvers for Defense?

[k22fan]

Offhand this is the best I can offer.

I sure would like some links to these numerous civilian defense encounters where 5 rounds would have been insufficient. [...]

The Tacoma News Tribune, TheNewsTribune.com, recently reported the court's ruling on a crime victim shooting the man he suspected had stolen one of his guns and, in a separate incident, fired a shot into his home. By chance he drove into a gas station and saw the suspected thief sitting in a car. Believing the suspected thief would shoot him he fired multiple double stack magazines into the car. In court he justified his actions by saying he did what the military had trained him to do, shoot first and pin down the enemy with suppressing fire. He had served in Afghanistan. He was convicted of second degree murder and assaulting seven bystanders that could have been hit but were not.

Jury finds man who fired 48 shots at Tacoma Arco gas station guilty of second-degree murder | The News Tribune

Does that count?

 

[Rastoff]

Does that count?

No, but it does give a perfect example of what not to do.

At no time will shooting 48 shots at one person be considered a justifiable self-defense shooting. We don't need nor should we use "suppressive" fire in self-defense.

 

[American1776]

There are quite a few cases where armed civilians needed more than 6 rounds.
1) Lance Thomas, the watchshop owner. He was in at least 4 different gunfights, and in three of them, he needed more than one gun to finish the fight (shooting multiple guns dry and going for another). The Ayoob files; An urban gunfighter: The lessons of Lance Thomas
American Handgunner , March-April, 2002 by Massad Ayoob

2) Richard Davis. He was delivering pizzas when he was ambushed by three armed robbers. He shot his revolver dry, hitting all three of them, and then he got plugged in the guts by one of his assailants when he ran dry. (this story can be found in many places on google...I think Ayoob writes about it too).

3).There was the Circuit City shooting in 1996. An off duty officer, Jason Hendrix(I'll consider him an armed citizen, since he was caught in the middle of a public shooting / domestic violence attack, just like any armed citizen might be caught there). He fired all 5 rounds from his Chief Special, hitting the bad guy at least 4 times in the torso. The bad guy had a Glock 17, and walked up to Hendrix and kept shooting him while on the ground. Hendrix survived. Shots Fired: Palm Desert, California 03•30•1996 - Article - POLICE Magazine

There was another story about a home invasion, I cannot find the link. Homeowner was a competitive shooter, confronted the assailants with a scandium 5 shot snub. Fired all five rounds, scoring hits with all 5, and when he went dry, the assailants remaining standing shot him dead.

All of these cases ARE ONES IN WHICH WE MIGHT ALL FIND OURSELVES FACING. It matters not that we are not watch shop owners in the ghetto, nor off duty officers, or pizza delivery men. All of these events happened in public places, and none of them involved a uniform officer performing his or her duties of arrest or engagement.

We all go to shopping malls, we all walk on sidewalks where pizzamen walk, and we all frequent little shops where multiple armed robbers might decide to shoot it out with the owner or even patrons.

It does no good to argue, "Well, I'll just run away"...if we all had that luxary, then we wouldn't need to carry any gun. Some of us go out in public with dependents, who cannot run with you to escape danger. That means we will need to stay and fight, just like all of the above armed civilians had to do.

Odds are, zero shots will be enough. But that doesn't mean that we might not encounter the lottery and win

 

[Rastoff]

You pay your money and you take your chances.

Thanks for posting that info American1776. But what are the odds? In the context of this thread, a single action gun can be used for self-defense. Yes, we might be more able to defend against a larger threat with more/bigger rounds. It's an individual's choice and they're the ones that have to carry this stuff around.

You make my point for me. You've listed some real situations, but they are still extremely rare.

 

[Whitwabit]

Really? I grew up in your neck of the woods (Decatur). Must have changed.

In my experience, 2 to 5 "perps" turn into 0 pretty quick once the shooting starts.

This is the latest numbers for my area from 2016 !!

The city violent crime rate for Peoria in 2016 was higher than the national violent crime rate average by 91.45% and the city property crime rate in Peoria was higher than the national property crime rate average by 57.01%.

Yes things have changed !!

 

[SuperMan]

Since 1776 and I had this discussion already via PM I will have to disagree with him...

Lance Thomas...his shop was a commercial robbery magnet...not something a normal civilian would ever encounter. There are videos of his gun fights that I have seen and after wildly blasting one gun dry he would run down the counter for another...

Richard Davis was shot before he shot the robbers not after. He took care of business with the 5 shots he had. There was no more incoming fire after he ran dry...fight over:

"The streetwise Davis came prepared for an assault, but his body was unprepared for the two bullets that nailed him seconds later, one glancing off his head just beneath the frame of his glasses and the other plowing into the back of his leg.

Rather than falling to the ground, Davis somehow managed to wound two of his three attackers. "Thank God for the 'Saturday Night Special,' " he said, referring to the small, cheap handgun his attackers used. "I was hit twice, but I got four hits on them, so I won the game on points, I guess."

Jason Hendeix, while and exceptionally brave LEO, was not acting as a civilian once he decided to go on the "offensive" to stop the possible murder/kidnapping. In reading the whole story, even if he had extra ammo when he ran his gun dry, the likelihood of him being able to reload due to his injuries was doubtful...

I have either personally spoken to or emailed with many of the top trainers and have asked the same questions about a civilian reload and other than the ones cited, they have none. (this was in the 2003-5 area).

What you bring to the dance in your gun is what you are going to finish the fight with...

If you read Tom Givens book Fighting Smarter, he has had 65 students involved in gun fights...not a one reloaded except for one who reportedly topped off his gun after the hostilities were basically over...

So as to the original question on carrying a SA for self-defense and are competent with it, it beats someone who who has a Wonder 9 who isn't...mindset/training/tactics are everything...

Bob

 

[American1776]

Since 1776 and I had this discussion already via PM I will have to disagree with him...

Lance Thomas...his shop was a commercial robbery magnet...not something a normal civilian would ever encounter. There are videos of his gun fights that I have seen and after wildly blasting one gun dry he would run down the counter for another...

Richard Davis was shot before he shot the robbers not after. He took care of business with the 5 shots he had. There was no more incoming fire after he ran dry...fight over:

"The streetwise Davis came prepared for an assault, but his body was unprepared for the two bullets that nailed him seconds later, one glancing off his head just beneath the frame of his glasses and the other plowing into the back of his leg.

Rather than falling to the ground, Davis somehow managed to wound two of his three attackers. "Thank God for the 'Saturday Night Special,' " he said, referring to the small, cheap handgun his attackers used. "I was hit twice, but I got four hits on them, so I won the game on points, I guess."

Jason Hendeix, while and exceptionally brave LEO, was not acting as a civilian once he decided to go on the "offensive" to stop the possible murder/kidnapping. In reading the whole story, even if he had extra ammo when he ran his gun dry, the likelihood of him being able to reload due to his injuries was doubtful...

I have either personally spoken to or emailed with many of the top trainers and have asked the same questions about a civilian reload and other than the ones cited, they have none. (this was in the 2003-5 area).

What you bring to the dance in your gun is what you are going to finish the fight with...

If you read Tom Givens book Fighting Smarter, he has had 65 students involved in gun fights...not a one reloaded except for one who reportedly topped off his gun after the hostilities were basically over...

So as to the original question on carrying a SA for self-defense and are competent with it, it beats someone who who has a Wonder 9 who isn't...mindset/training/tactics are everything...

Bob

Good analysis. I've learned a lot here. Capacity might matter, but many other things matter too.

 

[SuperMan]

Naphtali..."If I could construct a grip that wouldn't break down, I would strongly consider my 4.25-inch Model 97 - or having Freedom Arms convert one of mine to their tiny 3.5-inchers with round butt to be EDC."

The question I have is, wouldn't this be counter productive when your arthritis kicks in? If the gun didn't roll in your hand the shock, like from a Colt Lightning type gripframe would give, cause you to "flinch"...

I have a 4.25" FA 97 in .41 Magnum with a round butt and it is one of my favorite SAs...

Don't know what caliber your gun is in but could you run something lighter in recoil that would not roll so much but still be effective?

Bob

 

[Whitwabit]

In the past when you heard of a shooting the number of shots fired were usually stated as being 2 or 3 ,,

But in todays modern gun age with mags that will hold 20 to 30 rounds perps seem to just spray them the more the better to them .. and instead of a lone gunman the occurrences of multiple perps has increase greatly .. man across the river got his home invaded late one night by 3 plus perps who ended up pushing him down a flight of basement steps .. he died several days later because of a head injury .. was never able to identify anyone ..

It really all depends what your neck of the woods is like for the SD gun of your choice .. where one might need 17 to 20 rounds someone else might get by with a 5 shot revolver ..

Guns are so easy to get 12 and 13 year olds have been caught with guns ..

 

[Wise_A]

You make my point for me. You've listed some real situations, but they are still extremely rare.

Why would you cripple yourself in one area for no gain?

Suppose someone invented a bullet which functioned normally inside of 10 yards, but dissipated into nothing past that. Very safe and all for missing, you see. Would you use it?

Why not??!! After all, it should be perfectly fine for almost all self-defense encounters! Statistically-speaking, you'll be fine!

 

[geoff40]

I know a woman who has kept a 45Colt, 4 5/8" Blackhawk at the ready for decades. Goes with her everywhere, in a holster, and protects her while she sleeps at night. She knows how to shoot it well. Who am I to argue?

 

[Rastoff]

Why would you cripple yourself in one area for no gain?

Suppose someone invented a bullet which functioned normally inside of 10 yards, but dissipated into nothing past that. Very safe and all for missing, you see. Would you use it?

Why not??!! After all, it should be perfectly fine for almost all self-defense encounters! Statistically-speaking, you'll be fine!

I agree with your intent here. But this logic begs the same question from the other side: The AR15 has been proven to be a better bad guy stopper than any handgun so, why cripple yourself by not carrying that? Obviously that's an extreme, but valid, argument.

The point here is that a SA gun can be used for self-defense, not that it's the best or even mediocre; just that it can be used.

 

[SATX]

I believe a single action revolver is a terrible idea for CCW. What if you were forced to use your weak side arm to fend off an attack? One handed cocking of the hammer adds time between shots fired.

 

[Rastoff]

I believe a single action revolver is a terrible idea for CCW. What if you were forced to use your weak side arm to fend off an attack? One handed cocking of the hammer adds time between shots fired.

What if? I'm sure we could come up with any number of more likely issues with carry.

What if you're pocket carrying and sitting down? That seems like a more likely scenario to me and really slows things down yet, people do it all the time and it's never questioned.

What if you're fending the bad guy off with your shooting hand? Wouldn't that slow the presentation?

What if you accidentally hit the mag release and the mag falls out? Now you only have one shot. If you have a mag disconnect, you have no shots.

What if...?

I still say a single action is better than no gun at all. If that's what you have, by all means carry it.

 

[SATX]

You are correct in saying that a single action is better than no gun at all. You are also correct in saying there are better guns out there for self defense purposes. That is exactly my point, so thank you for agreeing with my point in your first post. We can "what if" all day long. What if someone wanted you dead, you would never know that you were killed? What if the mother ship landed? Why even carry at all?

 

[Naphtali]

Naphtali..."If I could construct a grip that wouldn't break down, I would strongly consider my 4.25-inch Model 97 - or having Freedom Arms convert one of mine to their tiny 3.5-inchers with round butt to be EDC."

The question I have is, wouldn't this be counter productive when your arthritis kicks in? If the gun didn't roll in your hand the shock, like from a Colt Lightning type gripframe would give, cause you to "flinch"...

I have a 4.25" FA 97 in .41 Magnum with a round butt and it is one of my favorite SAs...

Don't know what caliber your gun is in but could you run something lighter in recoil that would not roll so much but still be effective?

Bob

Bob:

I appreciate your information. I have a pair of FA 97s, one 4.25 inch, the other 5.5 inch.

I'll PM you with my reply. I don't want to intrude on this thread.

 

[Rastoff]

Food for thought: In some liberal states, cocking the hammer may be construed as premeditated, even in a SD situation.

Do you have an example of this in case law? I've never heard this before.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

As a cowboy action shooter, although it has been awhile, I can state from personal experience that CAS shooters are quite sufficiently capable of using SAA-type guns for self defense. If I had to choose my .45 Colt Vaqueros for self defense I would not feel undergunned. However, it would not be my first choice. But with the experience that CAS shooters have the choice of a single action could make sense. Absent that training I wouldn't recommend one for the casual shooter for self defense.

When I travel the 8 miles into the Town of Prescott Arizona, I see a lot of single action revolvers on belts being carried. While I personally feel more comfortable with my concealed Glock 19 or Springfield Pro, The cowboys around here look pretty defended with their choice of side arm. I've never walked down Whiskey Row in Prescott day or night without seeing someone with a SAA in a cowboy belt and holster. I guess it works for them out here in the west.

About 34 years ago I was in the town square of Prescott, AZ for the 4th of July parade. Motorcyclists were lined up side by side along the parade route. I was fascinated to see that almost every rider had a large handgun on him, belt guns, shoulder holsters, etc. SAAs, 1911s, and who knows what else. Not being familiar with Arizona's open carry rules at the time I asked a local LEO and he just shrugged and said, "We know about it."

Pretty cool. Now it's no longer an unknown phenomenon. Even cooler.

 

[SATX]

The AR15 has been proven to be a better bad guy stopper than any handgun so, why cripple yourself by not carrying that? Obviously that's an extreme, but valid, argument.

No, not really, not even close.

 

[Wise_A]

I agree with your intent here. But this logic begs the same question from the other side: The AR15 has been proven to be a better bad guy stopper than any handgun so, why cripple yourself by not carrying that? Obviously that's an extreme, but valid, argument.

The point here is that a SA gun can be used for self-defense, not that it's the best or even mediocre; just that it can be used.

Because there are disadvantages to the AR15--it's heavy, it's cumbersome, it takes two hands, you look like a maniac around town.

There really aren't any disadvantages to choosing a double-action revolver over a single-action.

I suppose I'm gun-gaming it a bit (min/maxing gear and all), which I normally abhor, but here I think the disadvantages are rather severe. So, outside of a few situations--the woods gun mentioned above is a good one--I'd put it in the same "Well, if you can't carry anything else..." category as some of the more poorly-designed surplus Egyptian and Eastern Bloc pistols.