Sizing, trimming, button expanded and NOE

[Boogsawaste]

Question for you lead rifle shooters that use either the Lyman M die or the NOE version that goes in the LEE universal die.

Most of my 30-30/35 rem brass is in spec as far as trim length but I've come across a few lately that need to be trimmed. My issue is that I don't run an expander button in my sizing die and do my expanding with the NOE expander. Doing it this way I can't fit the mandrel of my trimmer though the case neck to trim after sizing. I also have my NOE set up to flare the case mouth so in my mind trimming with a flare is a no no. Correct?

From what I can tell my 2 options are put the button back in the sizing die. Not a big fan of it but I can if needed. Or back off the NOE so it's not flaring, trim the brass, then adjust the die back down to flare again. Adds steps but I could also do it this way.

What are you guys who are using M/NOE expanders doing? This is for a lever action so I'm not needing 1000 yard performance.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

Most but not all trimmer pilots are seized for fired Brass so your normal pilot is around .015 or more too big. Group the correct length brass in one pile and the too long in another. Then load (be careful to only very light crimp the long brass.) Trim everything next loading.

Some lever actions and military bolt actions, have long chambers on purpose, to allow dirty ammo to function, the brass stretches every time it is fired! I will separate at the web at around 4 or 5 reloadings (303 British is the worst!) Neck sizing and using the ammo for that rifle only, you can get around 20 reloadings then. You can fire until the brass fails, but I never tried a stuck case remover in a Lever Action (and never seen one for 30-30 or 35 Rem!).

In theory, you could trim the pilot to the small diameter. like I said "In theory". I've toyed with the idea of turning a Lee trimming pilot with very fine sand paper in a drill press. but never tried it.

Ivan

 

[Alk8944]

As Ivan said, trimmer pilots are sized to fit fired brass, not sized. You are doing it in the wrong order.

 

[Boogsawaste]

Here's the thing, it fits my sized brass if I'm using the expander button in the die. It's snug but fits no problem.

I removed the button as I shoot only lead and use a separate die to expand and bell. This is where I ran into the problem since my sized brass hasn't been expanded.

I always see it to trim brass after sizing because of the case growing in length during full length sizing.. Maybe I've been doing it wrong all this time? Would be easy to trim before sizing.

Edit: I should mention that I'm using the slow and tedious lee hand held unit. It's the case gauge length rod that is a tight fit. Although I'm guessing it's basically the same as a pilot in the lathe type trimmers.

 

[rockquarry]

I won't argue any points mentioned by others, but here's the way I do it and with good results... I use the expander button when sizing and always trim brass after sizing. Trimming it before sizing won't be as precise as the case length may slightly elongate during the sizing process.

As for full length sizing vs. neck sizing... do a partial sizing if cartridges are for use in anything other than something like an AR15 (where full- length sizing is best). Size only to the point where the action closes with "slight" resistance on a cartridge; brass will last a long time. Anneal if you wish. This procedure is popular these days, but I've seldom found it necessary. Rather, throw brass in the salvage pile when it becomes worn.

For a cast bullet cartridge expander, either use what was included with the die set, or, if one was not included, any appropriate expander will work fine. This is not a critical part of the process, just never expand a neck more than the minimal amount necessary for seating a cast bullet.

 

[gwpercle]

I trim my cases after firing but before resizing.
The reason is after resizing the neck it wont slip over the 30 cal. mandrel that came with the Pacific Trimmer. The neck will slip onto the mandrel prior to sizing the case so I do it that way.
Gary

 

[SMSgt]

I've never had a problem with a pilot fitting a resized case neck for trimming.

 

[Boogsawaste]

I've never had a problem with a pilot fitting a resized case neck for trimming.

My problem is sized brass when NO button expander used in the sizing die. With the button it works fine but I have it removed and expand with the NOE die (like an M die).

 

[rockquarry]

My problem is sized brass when NO button expander used in the sizing die. With the button it works fine but I have it removed and expand with the NOE die (like an M die).

Why do you not use the expander button?

 

[Boogsawaste]

2 reasons really. One it was messing with me on 35 remington and would pull the shoulder back out on some pieces of brass.

Second, I shoot only lead so I use the NOE insert in a lee die. It's like a Lyman M die. It has a little step on it that expands slightly further than the base of it to help keep the bullet from swaging and it also flares the case mouth to help avoid shaving.

I could put the button back in but it caused those issues with the tiny 35 shoulders and I got to the range a couple times and couldn't close the action of my gun. I used graphite in the necks and it helped but I figured it might be over working the shoulders especially since I didn't need it to expand. Well except to trim cases after sizing of course.

 

[Forrest r]

Trim a couple fired cases them size them without the expander ball. You will find that it's the expander ball itself the stretches the cases out/longer.

Something you need to do:
Measure your fired cases for the neck diameter. Then measure a loaded round and find the neck diameter with 1 of cast bullets seated in the case. Lastly you want to measure the ball throat in the chamber of your rifles. Man/moment/machine time
In a perfect world you want your cast bullet the size of your ball throat. You want the case neck diameter of the seated bullet to be 1/1000th's less then the fired case's neck diameter. Hence 1/1000th's release.

You're using two cartridges that are cast bullet friendly. Sometimes small things like finding thicker walled or thinner walled brass makes huge differences.

Myself I have a cast bullet only 308w & trim my brass 15/1000th's short. I polished neck sizing die out so that it neck sizes the cases 3/1000th's less in diameter of my fired cases. I had a .340" match chamber cut in the custom bbl & the neck sized cases measure .337". The chamber has a .310" ball throat so I size my cast bullets to .310". I use a universal lee flare die to expand the case mouth. The thick lc brass is neck turned so that the .310" bullet seated in the neck turned cases measures .339".

Just something to think about when your working on your case lengths.