Slaying of rancher on the border saturday

[pharmer]

The "fence" ain't working. A strip 200 yds wide filled with those cheap Chinese antipersonnel mines along with bouncing bettys and some anti tank mines from the Pacific ocean to Texas would cut down on this crap. My wife says what about animals and hikers? They need to read the "Achtung,Minen!" signs. Would cut down on the manpower needs also. Joe

 

[feralmerril]

I may be wrong but I suspect that we either are lied to or just given false information and never needed to buy a drop of oil from other countrys. Dont we SELL oil to japan and elsewhere from alaska?
I was raised in wisconsin back in the 40s through early 60s. Everyone worked! There were a lot of cottage industry and larger factory jobs that doesnt exist now. There was many truck garden farms that hired us kids to work alongside the many mexican brazzeros that would migrate every summer. For kids, we made good money. We had seasonal cannerys like green giant that would hire anyone who would show up.
As far as buying foreign cars, you cant name a car that IS totaly made here in the states. You have no choice! Maybe a model here and there in ford or GM once used to be made mostly here, yet the very same company sold foriegn cars along side them, so whats the point?
I belive the real economical problem we have in this country is and always has been the socalists and greenies and liberal thinkers that are elected. Many stupid osha regulations make it difficult to compete, companys are taxed and regulated out of existance or move out of the country to survive.
Lawyers are vultures that attack every product that can be made and the result has been doctors and no one else can afford the insurance to make it attractive to start a small business.
Were I a politican I would be in a delemma. I have strong feelings on both sides of the illegal immigration problem. First, were I born in mexico, I think I would be at the head of the line hopping the fence and swimming the river! Yet I belive we should close the border and deal harshly with all illegals. I belive we should check everyone and deport every illegal found and if found again in this country, seize everything they have, deport them again and tell them if they return they will be made slaves. I have met many obvious illegals, and can feel for them.
I also will admitt to fantisiseing that I would like to be able to select some legal americans to take their place in deportation!
I belive the feeling really is that there is just too many illegals here, about 20 million?, to effectively round them up. Privately, the politicans probley think that if we attempted to, we would look like the nazis rounding up the jews.
In 1954 president Eisenhower had a program called "Operation wetback". They rounded up somewhere around a 150,000 illegals and shipped them back far below the border. They estimated close to a million more went back on their own when they seen what was happening and that we were serious!
At the same time we also had "the bazzero program where many mexicans could legaly come seasonaly and work the crops. It seemed to work, and as a boy I worked with many of them in the fields in wisconsin.
I have one big question. Now if a illegal is caught near the border by the BP, they are deported. There is no fine or penalty of any kind. It kind of is like throwing your dog off the back of your truck when you want to go to town without him and he repeatedly climbs back on untill you give up!
Just where is the line where the illegal is safe? If found by say a traffic violation or whatever in a northern state, they are NOT deported!
The kids are going to school somewhere. The schools know the kids address,s. Like gays in the military its dont ask, dont tell.
Some states like texas and arizona are being bankrupted because the feds make them school and give welfare to many.
Our politicans and goverment seem to have no concept of reality. None know what it is to sweat for a dollar in the fields or at whatever. Their answer is let the evil big corperations pay the taxs for all their liberal socalistic ideas.
Things eventualy have to burst. Unless the lord comes first, we all will go broke and there has to be a huge reveloution where all dredges of soceity will either have to start working for pennies to eat or be shot when they try to steal from you.
This country no longer produces anything. It has become a "service" industry. Outside of construction and a few other types of employment it seems there are no sweat jobs. Not everyone in the world can be employed in a office setting! Somewhere, sometime, products have to be produced or we wont eat or have cloths to wear! Not everyone in this country can work at a hospital, bank, or be in the military or a LEO! Someones got to weed the onions and pick the mellons.
We need to either get rid of the sluggards or the illegals or both! First, we need to exicute everyone on death row yesterday, also all child molesters and drug pushers. Then all lesser theifs etc now in jail need to be marched out to the fields to do the illegals work.
I really would like to give every prisoner a choice. Either you work in the fields untill you drop or no longer can, or you trade places with one honest illegal imigrant and go to mexico, (we will keep throwing you over the fence untill you make it) but if found here later, you will be shot when found.

 

[perrazi]

i don't think there are jobs americans will not do. there are jobs americans won't do for the amount of money being paid. we had the same thing in our town. morrells was one of the larger meatpackers around, and in this town you worked for them or for john deere making farm equipment. once the meatpackers union got the wages to where they wanted them, the company could no longer afford to keep the plant operating. it was sold, torn down and new meatpacking plant was built. by the time the unions got the wages up, the plant was sold to new owners and the union had to start from scratch with wages and benefits and the whole cylcle would start anew. somewhere along the line, the unions lost most of their power and the companies started hiring latins for the jobs and now pay about what was being paid 20yrs. ago. it's all about the money. who has it,how to get more of it and who they can take advantage of and for how long.

 

[walnutred]

It is a sad statement but we actually need illegal Mexicans in this country. There are jobs that Americans will not do and feel it beneath them.

I bet if we stopped some of the housing subsidies, food subsidies, sit on your back side and watch TV subsidies, you might be surprised how many people would be willing to fold linen. And more importantly, you might be surprised how may people would become motivated to learn a trade or other marketable skill set that would get then out of folding linen for the rest of their lives.

 

[ENGINE18]

In Arizona, Andrew Thomas, the current Maricopa County Attorney, is running for Arizona State Attorney General. He is a staunch supporter of Maricopa County Sheriff, Joe Arpio. When Mr. Thomas is elected, and he WILL be, adios!

 

[ENGINE18]

Continuing on, other than voting, I've not been involved in politics for decades. That said, I am going to do all I can to supprot Mr. Thomas in his endevors and urge all Arizona member of this forum to do so as well!

 

[rcnixon]

Ahhh, if only... Unfortunately, Coyle estimated about 14.5 million would be needed to achieve the required density. I wish I was smart enough to come up with a solution but I am not. I'm pretty sure I could do better than some of those elected/appointed to figure it out.

Frank

Frank, you're the only other person I've "met" who has read Coyle and "Sword Point". His discussion of the logistics of closing the border with a brute force solution was eye opening but not surprising. The earliest ten years of my IT career (hah!) was spent doing logistics so I have been intimately familiar with "stuff" and moving it from place to place when needed. A smarter solution is what is required, electronic surveillance and mobile reaction forces are a better answer than 12 million meters of concertina and 15 million mines. The mines and concertina can be used, of course, to channel the invaders into a catcher sack. Some force applied in the D. F. would help too.

Russ

 

[Bat Guano]

Read about 2-3 Coyle books years ago. Pretty good.

BTW, don't believe all that stuff about how impossible it would be to start apprehending and returning illegal aliens to Mexico (or wherever). The only problem--other than simple logistics-is that in authority has the huevos to actually do it.

Which is a damn shame.

 

[Bat Guano]

Should read "no one in authority"...

But then everyone knows that.

 

[sigp220.45]

They come here because we pay them to.

I used to work in Idaho, one of the reddest of the red states. All of the good Republican dairy owners hired illegal aliens. They simply could not get US citizens to do dairy work, and they paid a decent buck.

I once went with my ICE pals to snatch a guy who was working at a local car lot washing cars. The owner was known to me - he was somewhere to the right of John Birch. He howled like a stuck pig when we hauled "his Mexican" away.

If you want them to stop coming, get ready to pay eight bucks a gallon for milk, and start grooming your kids for rewarding careers in the motel housekeeping industry.

We need a workable guest worker program where these folks can come here, do the work that is somehow beneath us Americanos, send the money home, and leave after their time is up. Of course, you'll have to figure out what to do with the little US citizens they give birth to while they're here.

This topic always generates lots of heat and little light.

 

[snakeman32]

scoutsdad,
If it gets crazy down there and you need help in the area let me know.


snakeman

 

[scoutsdad]

scoutsdad,
If it gets crazy down there and you need help in the area let me know.


snakeman

It is already crazy, CCW classes filled to overflowing, Grandma's packing. I myself bought 2 semi-auto rifles in 3 months, one for me, one for Ms. scoutsdad. Rob let his defenses down, he had a pistol and a rifle on his ATV. He never exposed them.

We were reminded of AZ's new defense laws;

13-421. Justification; defensive display of a firearm; definition
A. The defensive display of a firearm by a person against another is justified when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.
B. This section does not apply to a person who:
1. Intentionally provokes another person to use or attempt to use unlawful physical force.
2. Uses a firearm during the commission of a serious offense as defined in section 13-706 or violent crime as defined in section 13-901.03.
C. This section does not require the defensive display of a firearm before the use of physical force or the threat of physical force by a person who is otherwise justified in the use or threatened use of physical force.
D. For the purposes of this section, "defensive display of a firearm" includes:
1. Verbally informing another person that the person possesses or has available a firearm.
2. Exposing or displaying a firearm in a manner that a reasonable person would understand was meant to protect the person against another's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.
3. Placing the person's hand on a firearm while the firearm is contained in a pocket, purse or other means of containment or transport.


I know before I would never remove my gun from my holster except to use it. Now I will pull my gun first ask questions later.

And we will remember the 21 ft rule, no one will get that close to me unless he is on the ground and spread.

 

[snakeman32]

It will definately give them something to think about if you show them you are armed and willing to protect youself. Remember to watch your back.


snakeman

 

[nostraDONus]

Do we send any financial aid to Mexico? We should be billing them for every illegal caught and sent back. Maybe we could offset a few trillion being spent by our current Congress. We need to flip the responsibility back over to the Mexican government to stop their citizens before they cross. The message needs to be sent that it is no longer acceptable to look the other way or encourage them to cross. I just don't see anybody currently on Capitol hill with the stones to take a stand.

 

[Indycar]

I'm very familiar with that area, my dad retired there in 95' and I spent a lot of time out there over holidays and summers. I do a lot of hiking and exploring in the mountains and the flats. The custom there is everyone carries a firearm if one goes outside of town (even the little old church ladies). Open carry is normal and I've NEVER seen a rancher without a piece on his hip or vehicle. Dopers (aka: mules) run across the board freely and "coyotes" are running UDA"s (undocumented alliens) across the boarder at will.

Less than a mile from the boarder is sign reading "If this was Scottsdale the National Guard would be here" except that the NG has to deal with "Posse Comatadis" and would thus be unarmed.

I personally have seen well armed "coyotes" and "mules" with about a dozen people or packers in the mountains. You just draw your weapons, hunker down and try to get in as a strategic position as you can should they spot you. I've never been in a shoot out with them, but know many that have (who have won and lost).

The only solution to the problem is to militarize and arm this side of the border and seal the border. Right now it is so porous that anyone with a map and a brain can get to Tucson (about 100 miles away) undetected.

 

[The Last Standing Knight]

It is a sad statement but we actually need illegal Mexicans in this country. There are jobs that Americans will not do and feel it beneath them. A friend owns a linen service and placed an ad in the local paper for workers in his new plant. He hired 17 Americans and four LEGAL Mexicans. They were paid $7.32 per hr. to wash, fold and stack linen to be delivered to hotels. At the end of a month, he had ONE American left and had all 17 of the Mexicans still there. Mexicans do not mind hard labor. He still tries to hire Americans but they never stay long.

I am as American as they come. But those complaining about Mexicans taking their jobs generally will have a foreign car in their drive. It may have been assembled in the US but it was made in some other country and the profits of the car went to another country. That still puts Americans out of work.

With all due respect, I find that comment about "we need illegals" highly disturbing. Not from what your reasons you wrote (I understand your context here), but to me, this philosophy sounds to me like history repeating itself. Let me explain:

I have seen illegal immigrants over the years treated as nothing more than a new version of slave labor. I have seen them treated and abused at levels NO person should tolerate. Add "coyotes" to this and you see an even bigger picture that bears this out (read: modern slave traders). The fact the illegals chose to come over here makes no difference.

Back in the 1850's, lots of people of high standing of that time wrote about "we need slavery for our economy", too.

The violence in Mexico is going to increase with potential for armed upheaval on a massive scale that at this point I believe is inevitable. When this occurs, it will not be already desperate people looking for a better way of life...but refugees of an all out war that will overwhelm resourses at even a national level. This is where it will start to get ugly. What we are seeing now is really only a small taste of what is to come.

I do agree wholeheartedly with what you wrote about our own countrymen. I have had staff work for me when I was a supervisor tell me that :
* "I can make more money going back and selling drugs..."
* "I ain't doing all that for this money..."
* "I'd rather go back on welfare/unemployment..." (take your pick)
* "I don't need this job..."
All this for simple guard job where the main tasks were extremely easy and not in a dangerous position.

 

[The Last Standing Knight]

Do we send any financial aid to Mexico? We should be billing them for every illegal caught and sent back. Maybe we could offset a few trillion being spent by our current Congress. We need to flip the responsibility back over to the Mexican government to stop their citizens before they cross. The message needs to be sent that it is no longer acceptable to look the other way or encourage them to cross. I just don't see anybody currently on Capitol hill with the stones to take a stand.

I agree, but the system in Mexico is, in my opinion, beyond repair at this point. Sometimes, you just have to reboot and start over.

In the end, it will have to be the Mexican people themselves to stand up and change it...at that point, we can help...but only to a point. The final call has to be on them.

Depending on the government to take ANY action with the current mindset in place expecting way too much. It will have to be done on the state and local level and there WILL be retailiation from Washington if this occurs...count on it.

 

[handejector]

This topic always generates lots of heat and little light.

Thank you- that is the best summation on the subject I have ever seen.