LittleAugieMo
Member
Been buying,trading,shooting S&W revolvers for 40+ years. When did folks start refering to "no dash" revolver as "-0" revolvers?
Smith&Wesson Model Numbers
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StrawHat
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I did not know they did!
Kevin
Kevin
Alk8944
US Veteran
Probably in the past 2 years or so. Just one of many evidences of the laziness of people that think, in this case, that typing an extra few letters is a real hardship so they resort to the "as long as you know what I mean" mindset!
. Personally I just type out "no-dash", that took maybe 2 seconds.
What I am saying is I agree with you!
So many of the younglings do not realize that there are -0 Smith & Wessons in the Real World
I no longer get excited when I think someone is offering a -0 revision of a Smith & Wesson revolver that I had not yet heard about
I no longer get excited when I think someone is offering a -0 revision of a Smith & Wesson revolver that I had not yet heard about
Jim Watson
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I liked the -0 abbreviation; I did not know there was a model actually so marked.
But now you mention it, why should I have to say anything?
Let's say I mention a Model 10. It is a Model 10, not a 10-1, -2, etc.
And it is sure not a "Pre 10".
But now you mention it, why should I have to say anything?
Let's say I mention a Model 10. It is a Model 10, not a 10-1, -2, etc.
And it is sure not a "Pre 10".
Precisely.
In addition to the 627, there are -0 revisions of the Model 57 that I have handled
I know there was one more someone talked about, but I never handled it and it slips my mind right now
When someone says they have a Model 29, I surely want to know more, same with 27s and a few others. That -1 or -2 or no - at all makes a world of difference to some of us.
Jeff
SWCA #1457
Jim,
I seldom reference the engineering revision at all when mentioning a model number. Truthfully I don't even have them written down on any of my lists as that is not a factor when I am looking at a specific configuration
There are a few I know because of them being weird like the 627-0.
But folks tend to refer to engineering revisions as if they are somehow descriptive of a configuration.
The product code or SKU is what is descriptive of a configuration. Even there some exceptions occurred
A single product code can span across multiple engineering revisions and a single engineering revision can have many different product codes produced during it's life cycle
The most abundant -0 example is from the Model 627. 4998 examples of product code 101024 were marked with a -0 engineering revision. 278 examples of that product code were no dash 627s and an unknown number were manufactured during the -1 and -2 engineering revisions.
Retired W4 has his -0 example of 101024 pictured above and my -1 example of 101024 is pictured here
When I display my guns, I include a card with some pertinent info so I have a few cards with no dashes, exemplified in the lower left corner or left center of the pic below...Occasionally I get the question of "What dash number is that one?"...I get to explain the reason for the dash numbers, or their absence and send someone along the way a little smarter than when he got there...
It takes a little longer when I explain why a gun such as the one in the middle center row never had a model number, and gets a little annoying to explain why no, it's not a pre-anything, S&W gave it a name then, not a number...
But it gets really annoying when a know-it-all wants to open the cylinder of one of my guns and exclaim loudly, "This gun doesn't have a model number, that means it's stolen!"...The one and only time that happened I took the gun out of his hands, put it back in the case after wiping his paw prints off, and told him he should report the theft to one of the police officers out front and claim the reward...Strangely enough, he avoids my tables now...
...BenAttachments
Maybe we should keep things uniform and mark them "pre -1".
Ivan
Ivan
Booooo...Hisssss...
...BenUsing the -0 nomenclature incorrectly is just another example of opportunities to educate others about the myriad possibilities for confusion about S&Ws. At least we have this forum to reach many owners like this post will do. And it will never end.
I think you could get an argument on that; that the stock is not part of the "furniture" on a rifle. If it isn't, what do you consider the parts which affect the way the firearm is held and supported to be? And if those are not the "furniture" of a rifle, what is?
Jeff
SWCA #1457
Jim Watson
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I think I ought to be able to write "M27" about a specific gun and it be read that there is not a dash on the gun, either.
But then I am not a collector, the last time I made a fuss over such stuff, we were talking about 5 screw, 4 screw, and 3 screw (boo, hiss) not dashes and pres.
But then I am not a collector, the last time I made a fuss over such stuff, we were talking about 5 screw, 4 screw, and 3 screw (boo, hiss) not dashes and pres.
I like neat and consistent categories. Good thing S&W makes this easy. All we have to do is look at what S&W has done, and figure it out. Because the factory NEVER did anything really confusing... like assemble pre-WWII frames with unique post-war stocks. Or make several versions of Chiefs Special without any engineering change all in the same year. Or put the prefix IN THE MIDDLE of a serial number... that would never happen.
Or just omit dashes on some guns... no, never!
(my example of a Model 10-no-dash-1)
SG-688
Member
Recall that articles about BP weapons refer to furniture being browned, blued or in the white, as examples. Metal pieces.
I saved Bruce Canfield's note.
I once chided him after an article had him writing "furniture" to refer to a stock. I blamed the editor although he humbly took the bullet.
Bruce Canfield - Canfield’s Corner
Pet Peeves –Part I (maybe) Posted 1-6-12
·Using the term “furniture” to denote wooden components of a firearm.
This one is really rampant and some very astute writers and some experienced collectors fall prey to it. Although the term can be considered almost archaic today, when it comes to guns, “furniture” properly denotes the metal fittings (usually attached to the stock) such as barrel bands, band springs, butt plates, patch boxes, etc., etc.
In this context, stocks, handguards and forends are not furniture. I guess since coffee tables and china cabinets are made of wood and are classified as furniture, then the wooden components of guns can be called furniture as well. This reasoning is perhaps logical, but it is also incorrect.
Another of those mostly irrelevant issues to which some will likely have to agree to disagree:
"The term gun furniture is used more often for AR-type weapons but also to a lesser extent other rifles and handguns this term refers parts which affect the way the firearm is held and supported. The pistol grip, stock, and handguard are all considered part of the furniture. This does not include accessories like scopes, lights etc."
I don't use the term myself, doesn't seem relevant, but perhaps others do. More power to 'em I guess, whatever one may think gun "furniture" is. . . .or isn't.
Jeff
SWCA #1457
Coming back to the issue of engineering changes, I do consider some to be significant as do many others. The main example being the blued N magnum -3 and blued K magnum -5, eliminating the recessed cylinders, as well as the pinned barrel. The exception being the Model 13-3, but then the 13 started later than the others.
What about guns that have no product code or SKU number? What is a model 36-1? It's the model 36 w/3"heavy barrel, only! Any other -1 J frame indicates it is a J frame and not an I frame transition model!Jim,
I seldom reference the engineering revision at all when mentioning a model number. Truthfully I don't even have them written down on any of my lists as that is not a factor when I am looking at a specific configuration
There are a few I know because of them being weird like the 627-0.
But folks tend to refer to engineering revisions as if they are somehow descriptive of a configuration.
The product code or SKU is what is descriptive of a configuration. Even there some exceptions occurred
A single product code can span across multiple engineering revisions and a single engineering revision can have many different product codes produced during it's life cycle
The most abundant -0 example is from the Model 627. 4998 examples of product code 101024 were marked with a -0 engineering revision. 278 examples of that product code were no dash 627s and an unknown number were manufactured during the -1 and -2 engineering revisions.
Retired W4 has his -0 example of 101024 pictured above and my -1 example of 101024 is pictured here
jcelect
I will restate it a bit to perhaps better get my point across
Of course firearms were manufactured before the Factory introduced the SKU
An engineering revision is not a specific configuration. The product code or SKU was introduced to specifically define a configuration
The -1 engineering revision of the Model 36 revolver has at least two distinct variations of that fine 5 shot 38 Special firearm.
Dash #s are specific to model #s, not to frame sizes.
The Mod 36 J frame has only one -1, the 3" heavy barrel.
The models 30, 31, 32, 33, 34 and 35 J frames with a -1 all refer to when those previous I frame models underwent the change to being built on the J frame.
The Mod 36 J frame has only one -1, the 3" heavy barrel.
The models 30, 31, 32, 33, 34 and 35 J frames with a -1 all refer to when those previous I frame models underwent the change to being built on the J frame.
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No a -1 engineering revision of the Model 36 can be at least a fixed sight 3" Chief Special or an adjustable sight 3" Chiefs Special Target. There is probably an additional variation or more that I have not yet handled
And as far as I know the fixed sight version of -1 engineering revision of the Model 36 can be either a square butt or a round butt
If I told someone I was selling my 36-1 and nothing else, there is no way to know what firearm I am referring to
Pictured below is the only -1 engineering revision of the Model 36 that I own but I am certain that one of you guys can post a different configuration of the -1 from your own collections
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Engine49guy
Member
My bet is people that put "- 0" were just being lazy and thought it saves typing out "No dash",
If I see an ad saying "Model 66 for sale" my first question is what revision is it because so many sellers either dont understand certain dash revisions are more desirable than others or they just didn't feel like typing no dash.
SS Rule #1 is there are no consistent rules with SW.
Btw I didn't even know that a 3" HB target version of the 36-1 existed but since SW didn't give the snub 36 target a seperate model number it makes sense that the 36-1 just denotes it has a HB, (BTW as you know the hb frame also has a slightly different frame top strap than the std frame as well).
In general a dash revision change generally denotes a component of the model has changed a parts design, for example the 66-1 revision denotes it has a different cylinder because they moved the gas ring from the yoke to the cylinder, the next change was they ceased pinning the barrel but since no parts design changed the revision did not change so late production non pinned 66-1's exist,
the 66-2 denotes the new non recessed cylinder.
A good example that There are no fixed rules with SW, when the Model 14-2 four inch HB Hanen Special was introduced it didn't get a different revision even though the barrel design is totally different .
If I see an ad saying "Model 66 for sale" my first question is what revision is it because so many sellers either dont understand certain dash revisions are more desirable than others or they just didn't feel like typing no dash.
SS Rule #1 is there are no consistent rules with SW.
Btw I didn't even know that a 3" HB target version of the 36-1 existed but since SW didn't give the snub 36 target a seperate model number it makes sense that the 36-1 just denotes it has a HB, (BTW as you know the hb frame also has a slightly different frame top strap than the std frame as well).
In general a dash revision change generally denotes a component of the model has changed a parts design, for example the 66-1 revision denotes it has a different cylinder because they moved the gas ring from the yoke to the cylinder, the next change was they ceased pinning the barrel but since no parts design changed the revision did not change so late production non pinned 66-1's exist,
the 66-2 denotes the new non recessed cylinder.
A good example that There are no fixed rules with SW, when the Model 14-2 four inch HB Hanen Special was introduced it didn't get a different revision even though the barrel design is totally different .
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No photos.
That's true of any dash #; you'd still have to state if your model 36-1 is fixed sighted or target and if had a rd or sq butt.
The butt configuration and sights are options, not a dash # or engineering change, and the options are available thru all the different dash numbers.
There's no other 36 -1 meaning other than the heavy barrel documented in any books or anywhere else.
The only 36-1 Targets I own or have ever seen have the 3" heavy barrel. So the -1 still only refers to the same -# change, the heavy barrel.
The Chiefs Spl Target models stamped Model 50 in 1973 came with 2 and 3 inch barrels. So the 3" Mod 50 likely has a -1 for the same reason if it has a heavy barrel.
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You just made my point
I do not care if you call all the other attributes of the revovler "Options", An engineering revision is not a configuration
You’re welcome! Sans maybe some slight misunderstanding we were on the same page.
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Sir, you have a valid point! Have you ever seen a 3" mod 50 CST? I have none in my database nor have I ever seen one. Also, the mod 50 was produced between 1969-1975 which means it was on the J frame only but the 50 CSTs I own and have seen were not stamped 50-1! In like manner, the mod 43 was produced from 1954-1974 on the J frame only but was not stamped with the -1 and the mod 51 was produced from 1960-1974 not stamped with the -1. It appears S&W did not follow their own protocol, go figure!
jcelect
