Smokey rounds.....44s and Bullseye

[Lou_the_welder]

Once again, it's not the primer, but try different ones if you want.

Heck try HP38/W231 but it also doesn't burn well at mouse fart loads. At least it is a little slower and if you vary due to the discs you are not gonna blow up. You have leeway to play with

Look at the Hodgdon data, notice the difference in the start load between a JHP and a lead 240 gr bullet!!
Set your sights on pistol reloading data | Hodgdon Reloading


Lee data is just data taken from some other source long ago. Lee did not test anything.


EDit:


Also how are you crimping the bullets? From what I recall the bullet you are using has no cannelure. So you need to be sure you have good neck tension.

Roll crimp.
You are right. These Rainier ones have no cannelure. So I go by listed OAL. In my case, I had been crimping them too short.
I had some bayou bullets PC in there before. I must've not adjusted correctly on height.

 

[Lou_the_welder]

I love Bullseye powder. But, "smokiness" is always a characteristic in any load/cartridge for which it is used.
I find it to be part of its charm, but understand others may find it annoying.

If you're shooting rapid fire, especially on an indoor range, you're gonna get "Bullseye" clouds forming.
In light loads, most of the other powders listed (HP38 231, 700x, etc) will also have some degree of "smoke".
For really clean burning and top notch accuracy, I've found Vihtavuori N310 to be excellent. It is a high energy, very fast burning powder with an almost laboratory grade level of cleanliness. If you want a clean burning lead bullet centerfire load that burns like target grade 22 LR, this is the powder.
It is a top choice for international centerfire competition in the 32 S&W long (wadcutter load) and 38 Special. It has also found favor with U.S. military marksmanship teams for 45 ACP and 9mm.

Jim

I just checked the Vihtavuori website.
N300 Powders - Vihtavuori

Reloading data - Vihtavuori

Lots of great data. But, nothing for N310 in 44 mag. But, they do offer loads for N320 and N32C. The latter is marketed under the name Tinstar. I haven't used either, but if they are as clean as N310, should be great.
Personally, I would have no qualms about recommending 44 data with N310, but without being able to back it up with factory data, will refrain from commenting.
Best Wishes!

Well, I do like the smell of bullseye. But, yes. The bullseye cloud.
I did manage to find loads for 8 quick shots of 38 short colts with magnum primers on my 627/327's.
But 6 quick shots of 44s. With the wrong amount of powder will have you in the clouds. ...

I dont have a source for the Vihtavouri line of powders. Locally. I would have to order them.

I do know in what direction to go. Just needed to clear my head. Got alot going on...

 

[rockquarry]

I've used Bullseye for many years, actually decades, and I've never noticed it to be any dirtier or cleaner than other powders. If you're shooting a good, "balanced" load, you shouldn't have problems with smoke from a powder; from a cast bullet lubricant, yes, but that's entirely different.

 

[Lou_the_welder]

I'm sure many will disagree with me on this but I gave up on Bullseye powder many years ago. It was the go to powder when I first started loading 40 years ago, but I found it to be just to dirty and moved on to cleaner burning ball powders. At that time I moved to Accurate Arms powders and haven't looked back, they're clean meter well and work with almost ever pistol I own. Their #2 is almost as fast as Bullseye but I prefer #5 for its versatility it can be used in 9mm, 38 Spl, light .357, .40S&W .44 Spl and .45 ACP. When I move up to heaver loads I skip over #7 and use #9 for Heavy .357 and .44 Mag.

I recently tried #9 on 44 mags. Very clean! And a straight push back!
I will have to try #5 then. I didn't really realize this may be cleaner alternative. Thank you.
I really have to find a cleaner burn.

 

[Lou_the_welder]

I've used Bullseye for many years, actually decades, and I've never noticed it to be any dirtier or cleaner than other powders. If you're shooting a good, "balanced" load, you shouldn't have problems with smoke from a powder; from a cast bullet lubricant, yes, but that's entirely different.

I've used Bullseye for other loads and are fine.
I think my light plinking load was under charged now. I'm going to bring it up. And maybe pick up some AA #5.
I try and buy my powder locally, so I'm at the mercy of what my LGS ordered. .

 

[alwslate]

An accurate light load with Bullseye in my 4" 29-2 is 6.2 grs under a
250 gr cast Lyman 429421 SWC and a Remington 2 1/2 primer or CCI
300 primer. I prefer the Remington for consistency. Chronographs at
830 fps out of the 4" 29-2.

 

[Forrest r]

I'd bump my loads up to 6.0gr of bullseye along with trying 6.0gr of titegroup and 6.0gr of hp-38.

Might want to check your neck tension/crimp, you can have the correct powder charge and get poor burn/results with too little tension on the bullet. Any powder burns better/more consistently when given time to build pressure/short start pressure. While keith lists a 5.0gr load you should keep in mind that the bullet he used has 1 heck of a roll crimp groove. hp versions of that keith swc with the huge crimp groove.

Personally I like 6.0gr to 6.5gr of clays for my lite/target/gallery loads in the 44mags. Those bullets pictured above. Put a scope on a beater 629 and was sighting it in doing test loads @ 25yds. Was aiming at the left target. Shot 3 moved the scope, shot 3 more moved the scop and then shot 6-shot test group. 6.0gr of clays

Another 6-shot group 6.0gr of clays/200gr wc shot the same day 25yds

6.5gr of clays 6-shot 25yd same day

6.5gr of clays 6-shot 25yds same day

 

[rwsmith]

You'll know what 'smoky' is.....

....when you shoot lead, traditionally lubed bullets.

Buy a scale. And think about buying a variable powder dispenser like an RCBS Uniflow. Usually a little higher pressure means a better burn of the powder. And I do like Red Dot. The Accurate powders are pretty clean burning.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

I don't have any experience with Bullseye in a 44 Mag case to share with you but I'm going with case tension/crimp as to why your loads aren't doing better with such a fast powder, like a couple others have mentioned already.

No reason CCI-300s shouldn't suffice in this load either.

I used to use my .44 Lee Deluxe (4) Die set but started noticing I wasn't seeing much of the bullet's shape "impression" in the case when seating bullets that have a nominal diameter, .4290". (My Rainier 240gr bullets mic at .4292")

I removed the de-capping plug & found the sizer die's diameter was .449" using my pin gages.

So on a whim I bought a Hornady .44 die set & the was happy to find it's sizer die measures .447" ID which makes a favorable difference.

Now you can better see the seated bullet's outline in the brass. (Like in the picture below of the 460 Mag case.)

When I want max case tension I use an expander die with a short plug, not a long one like on a RCBS or LYMAN M-expander die (which are fine for softer bullets equipped with a crimp groove).

Flare the case mouth just enough to get the bullet's base in & let the bullet expand the case out the rest of the way to get the most bullet-case tension.

Since plated (Rainier) bullets are so slick, & don't have a cannelure/crimp groove, bullet-case tension is important because a taper crimp can only do so much.

If you were to shoot some 240gr copper JHPs with the same load I'd doubt you'd see that same problem?

That's all I got.

.

.

 

[Forrest r]

I don't have any experience with Bullseye in a 44 Mag case to share with you but I'm going with case tension/crimp as to why your loads aren't doing better with such a fast powder, like a couple others have mentioned already.

No reason CCI-300s shouldn't suffice in this load either.

I used to use my .44 Lee Deluxe (4) Die set but started noticing I wasn't seeing much of the bullet's shape "impression" in the case when seating bullets that have a nominal diameter, .4290". (My Rainier 240gr bullets mic at .4292")

I removed the de-capping plug & found the sizer die's diameter was .449" using my pin gages.

So on a whim I bought a Hornady .44 die set & the was happy to find it's sizer die measures .447" ID which makes a favorable difference.

Now you can better see the seated bullet's outline in the brass. (Like in the picture below of the 460 Mag case.)

When I want max case tension I use an expander die with a short plug, not a long one like on a RCBS or LYMAN M-expander die (which are fine for softer bullets equipped with a crimp groove).

Flare the case mouth just enough to get the bullet's base in & let the bullet expand the case out the rest of the way to get the most bullet-case tension.

Since plated (Rainier) bullets are so slick, & don't have a cannelure/crimp groove, bullet-case tension is important because a taper crimp can only do so much.

If you were to shoot some 240gr copper JHPs with the same load I'd doubt you'd see that same problem?

That's all I got.

.

.

For some odd reason reloaders have to have that "gooder neck tension"/wasp waist look or they feel they're not doing something good.

MFG's make countless 1000's of rounds every year and what you don't see is bullet bulge. But you will see a couple 1000th's taper crimp. But heck what do they know.

You can get away with it with the hard jacketed bullets. Move over to soft cast, swaged or soft plated bullets and all's you'll do is deform them along with making it easier to seat the bullets crooked.

At the end of the day all of these things are easy enough to check/test. Increase the crimp and test. Increase the powder and test. And lastly if you make your reloads look like they have wasp waists roll them on a flat surface (piece of glass) with the rim hanging over. It is extremely easy to find/see out of round reloads from bullets not being seated strait. Or from the brass stretching unevenly, bass work hardened more on 1 side/less forgiving/etc.

 

[Rule3]

Lou,


It is all not this complicated. Go back to your post #4 and the Lee Data. Notice that it is for a LEAD bullet. You are NOT using a lead bullet.


Notice also that the min charge listed is 5.3 gr. You state that you are using below that!. Notice anything wrong here???

 

[Lou_the_welder]

Lou,


It is all not this complicated. Go back to your post #4 and the Lee Data. Notice that it is for a LEAD bullet. You are NOT using a lead bullet.


Notice also that the min charge listed is 5.3 gr. You state that you are using below that!. Notice anything wrong here???

Got it!

Leaving primer alone. Bumping up the charge.

 

[Lou_the_welder]

Thank you all !

And have a happy new year!!!
[emoji3060]

 

[BLUEDOT37]

For some odd reason reloaders have to have that "gooder neck tension"/wasp waist look or they feel they're not doing something good.

MFG's make countless 1000's of rounds every year and what you don't see is bullet bulge. But you will see a couple 1000th's taper crimp. But heck what do they know.

You can get away with it with the hard jacketed bullets. Move over to soft cast, swaged or soft plated bullets and all's you'll do is deform them along with making it easier to seat the bullets crooked.

At the end of the day all of these things are easy enough to check/test. Increase the crimp and test. Increase the powder and test. And lastly if you make your reloads look like they have wasp waists roll them on a flat surface (piece of glass) with the rim hanging over. It is extremely easy to find/see out of round reloads from bullets not being seated strait. Or from the brass stretching unevenly, bass work hardened more on 1 side/less forgiving/etc.

.

Of the major manufacturer's plated bullets that I've pulled, after seating, they did not show any meaningful change in diameter. As I stated, use a M-type expander for soft bullets, irregardless of type, that would so be affected. More than one option applies.

.

I find it curious when people are critical about a pistol round not being seated "straight". What are we talking about, the Leaning Tower of Pisa?

And it's not like we're talking about a lightweight hi-velocity bullet in a 1000yd. bolt action rifle's cartridge with a fixed/stationary chamber/barrel, no barrel-cylinder gap, no forcing cone, nothing for throats & a locking bolt forcefully holding the round in place.

We're talking about a revolver with (6) chambers & throats that aren't identical, a cylinder that has rotational play (& probably fore & aft play too) with inconsistent alignment, chambers that allow the cartridge to float around (forwards & backwards) freely, a cylinder-barrel gap, & a forcing cone to "persuade" the bullet to go down the center of the barrel.

And then we have short(er) cartridges that are happily shot in longer chambers (38s in 357s, 45ACP in 45Colt, 40s in 10Auto, 45Colt in 460Mag, etc) that have to traverse the chamber's diameter bouncing off it's walls until it finally gets to the chamber's throat for alignment.

And all, likely, in a short barrel being shot at a target just yards away. Right?

I'm all for doing a conscientious job but I don't sweat minute seating alignment differences in a revolver. Each to his own.

.

 

[noshow]

Anyone have a light load favourite?

I currently have hp38,titegroup,W231,power pistol bullseye for light.

Hey Lou, that Bullseye black cloud plagued me for years and I only shoot outdoors. It caused respiratory discomfort and sometimes infections. After a string of rapid fire, I would cough up black specs especially on calm humid days. I switched to Clays and it was like day & nite not to mention my 45 looked like it was in a chimney fire from BE. I suggest you try it!

 

[Bronco89]

Anyone have a light load favourite?

I currently have hp38,titegroup,W231,power pistol bullseye for light.

Yep. Trail Boss. Use the Lee book and my sweet spot is 1/2 way between middle and max.

 

[Lou_the_welder]

Hey Lou, that Bullseye black cloud plagued me for years and I only shoot outdoors. It caused respiratory discomfort and sometimes infections. After a string of rapid fire, I would cough up black specs especially on calm humid days. I switched to Clays and it was like day & nite not to mention my 45 looked like it was in a chimney fire from BE. I suggest you try it!

Ahh. ..

That's part of what I wanted to confirm. I may have to step away from Bullseye altogether.
Maybe I'll go to my midrange loads and stay. Like power pistol. Something with more powder. And not a weak charge.
I've seen Clays and trail boss. I might have to change up my powders for the new year.
I dont remember having this problem with a full charge of titegroup? But I know it wreaks havoc on the force cone. . Wonder what the difference is with that powder.

 

[Lou_the_welder]

Here at the LGS. In pistol powder , they have slim pickings.
From what I can see, blue dot, green dot(this bottle says now cleaner! Hmmmm), wst ball powder.......
And just rifle powders. Oh they have 300-mp. ..

 

[rwsmith]

Oh, By the way.....

To increase consistency with a powder measure, DO put a baffle in the bottom of the powder hopper. I made one myself out of an aluminum can. There are templates on the web.

 

[Lou_the_welder]

To increase consistency with a powder measure, DO put a baffle in the bottom of the powder hopper. I made one myself out of an aluminum can. There are templates on the web.

I do use a disk measuring "hopper"(?) Dispenser?
I dont know what the name is called. It's been eons since I purchased my progressive.
But it dispenses powder through a disk measure.
In cc disks. From .30cc- 1.35cc give or take.
Its measurements are precise and the same. Depending on what powder I'm using.
I dont see any way of putting a funnel as the powder goes through a powder expander die. Directly into the cases.

My above mentioned problem may have been augmented from switching from the smaller 'special' cases, to the larger 'magnum ' cases.