So, you've got the annoying trigger 'click', Now what!

Standard copper colored revised springs on the left side in each pic; and bright finish plain "stainless" color finish springs on the right ...




Damn, I'm getting low. I guess I ought to have asked for more of them all those years ago. ;)
 
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FastBolt beat me to it. :) BMCM I'd be happy to send mine to you if you want to make up some of those. Let me know. Regards 18DAI
 
I don't suppose the mothership would have any of those stashed about somewhere:rolleyes: The annoyance on the other end of the phone usually comes through loud and clear when I start rattling off 3rd gen parts numbers. I can only imagine the reaction when asking for some un-numbered part:(

Cheers
Bill
 
I don't suppose the mothership would have any of those stashed about somewhere:rolleyes: The annoyance on the other end of the phone usually comes through loud and clear when I start rattling off 3rd gen parts numbers. I can only imagine the reaction when asking for some un-numbered part:(

Cheers
Bill

Those springs were only in the possession of the guy whose number I gave you a while ago. He was the keeper of them for the 10mm project involving the FBI guns all those years ago. I don't know if he might even have any left, as he's probably been slowly clearing out his desk and workbench in preparation of retirement within the next year. :eek:

Having seen them appear in that one pic posted on an unremembered parts vendor website within the last year or so, I rather suspect whatever remained of them might've been cleaned out and sold off, mixed in with a lot of the regular trigger play springs, but that's just a guess.

FWIW, I never could get an answer of what alloy leaf spring material was used to make them, but they sure seemed stiffer than the regular springs. Seemingly almost of as stiff as the original copper colored "open" spring that wasn't connected across the top, but still made in the newer connected revision. I have a handful of early 3rd gen drawbars that still have the original style springs, but I've never thought to compare them. (I don't have any "new" old style springs left from those days.)
 
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Would have been helpful if you'd indicated somewhere what gun or guns you were referring to in the opening post.

Had no clue throughout the entire thing till I read responses to your post.
I have an old 4516, but never noticed whatever "annoying trigger click" you refer to, and had no idea what gun you were going through.
Denis

To bring you up to speed, when the third gen trigger play spring weakens/breaks, the trigger will develop a noticeable click when the trigger is pulled in single action. Doesn't seem to affect function, but I can speak through experience that it is very annoying. Some will break it off and live with it. I had mine replaced.

If your spring goes south, you know what the "click" is all about.
 
If my memory serves (doubtful as it may be), wassn't there an agency that specifically requested this little spring NOT be installed in their pistols? I am pretty sure I read about it here on this forum.

The CHP had their contract 4006's furnished without the spring, they are also not found on the California State Park (CSP) 4006's.

I bought a CSP 4006 and that was my introduction to the 3rd Gen trigger click... imagine my surprise when after reading about the cause , I pulled the slide and found it without the spring and rivet. I also discovered that S&W (when they still made them available on their website) had a parts listing for a 4006CHP model that did not include those parts.
 
Thanks for the help, SMS.
I carried my 4516-2 on duty for a couple years, retired it permanently after one qualification shoot where I accidentally caused a jam by inadvertently activating the safety during a drill & in the same session didn't get my pinky out of the way on slamming a reload in.
Caught enough skin to weld that finger to the gun temporarily.
Bled all over it till the shoot was done.

I still have it, but never shot it again.
Had no idea there was a dinky little flimsy-piece in it, or I would probably not have carried it at all.

As for "big 10" on the bench, made no sense at all to me.
Never heard that reference before.
Denis
 
Dpris the trigger play spring is not a "flimsy" part. At all. The reason it is often bent or "broken" is due to clumsy or over aggresive scrubbing by someone cleaning their gun.

The original trigger play spring is intact in all my duty guns. Including my 4516-3. No clicking at all after 10 years of service and thousands of rounds through it.

In fact, the only clicking due to a trigger play spring I ever experienced was with a pawn shop rescue 4506-1. That gun had not only been neglected, it had been abused. Thorough cleaning and pushing the "ears" forward, GENTLY, with a pencil eraser fixed the issue. Couple of thousand rounds later and it still is fixed.

And even it the spring breaks, your gun still functions. I shot two IDPA matches one month with a S&W 910 that I had inadvertently broken off the trigger play spring. I was new at the semi auto pistol in general and the 3rd gen guns in particular. I noticed while cleaning and testing for function that when my hammer was cocked back, in SA mode, my trigger moved around freely. When one breaks, thats all that happens.

So, while the clicking may be annoying and if bad enough it can be felt in the trigger, it is of no consequence to operating the gun. Regards 18DAI
 
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Looks flimsy to me. :)
I think I'll leave mine as it sits now & continue to not fire it so I can pass it down intact as a historical artifact.
Denis
 
Yes, perhaps that is best, for you.

But I see little danger of you actually firing it when you keep knocking the safety on unintentionally. :)

Maybe you could contact BMCM and see if he will do the modification to make it decock only for you! :) Regards 18DAI
 
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I only activated that safety accidentally once.
I dislike slide-mounted safeties & it's the only pistol I've ever owned that had one.

I wanted a steel .45 & my department would not approve a 1911, so I bought the 4516-2 as a pistol big enough for uniform carry AND off-duty concealed carry.

Had my gunsmith clean up the washboard trigger & I stuck a set of Hogue rubber on it, the gun did OK for me till that final qualifier.

I decided if I'd screw up the safety in training and forget to keep my finger out of the way on a quick reload, I'd better look elsewhere.

I bought a Glock 21, had Robar do his grip reduction on it, and finished up my career with that pistol.
It wasn't steel, but it didn't have a slide-mounted safety & it never bit my finger.


It's nothing I'd want to carry again & it hasn't been fired in over 20 years, so no point in putting additional money into the 4516.
Denis
 
Thanks for the Brownells referral.

Thought upon it, decided couldn't hurt to have a couple spare parts for that 4516-2, so called & ordered two springs and two rivets.


No need to "know a guy", no secret code numbers.
Just called & bought two springs & two rivets. :)
Now- who has NEW mags for the 4516-2?
Denis
 
Thanks for the Brownells referral.

Thought upon it, decided couldn't hurt to have a couple spare parts for that 4516-2, so called & ordered two springs and two rivets.


No need to "know a guy", no secret code numbers.
Just called & bought two springs & two rivets. :)
Now- who has NEW mags for the 4516-2?
Denis

You only needed to "know a guy" if you wanted the revised spring made for the FBI back in earlier days. The regular spring will do just fine. (Although the regular spring was also revised from the open-top to the closed-top design, but remained copper color.)

The standard new production 457/457S/4513TSW mag will work just fine, as the new mag lip design and the new black follower was the replacement for previous versions used in some of the earlier 4516 & "-" models. You can even use the black follower with whatever version 4516 mag you may be using currently, as the black follower replaced even the light green/yellow color mag follower, even though the older mag body may have been printed to state only to use with the old follower.
 
I recall there was something about the 4516-2 requiring its own mags, something different from the earlier pistols.
I knew it'd take 457s.

Does Smith still sell those?
THINK I have yellow followers.
Denis
 
I recall there was something about the 4516-2 requiring its own mags, something different from the earlier pistols.
I knew it'd take 457s.

Does Smith still sell those?
THINK I have yellow followers.
Denis

S&W still orders some 3rd gen magazines from time to time, as they still seem to be shipping some to vendors. SMITH & WESSON MAGAZINE ASSEMBLY, 7-ROUND, MODELS 457,4516,4536,4556 | Brownells

The 4516's and their mags went through some changes and revisions as they were trying to address some feeding and functioning issues back then. (Ditto the recoil spring and rod, but that's another story.)

They marked some of the 4516 magazines with the necessary color of the followers to be used, like orange and yellow. One of our guy's had one of the revisions (can't remember anymore) and his followers were a weird greenish/yellow, but that may have been because of his cleaning methods.

They just started telling us in the armorer classes that all previous plastic followers in the earlier 3rd gen .45's could be replaced with the last revision/black follower, as it superseded all previous plastic follower designs.

I was told that the metal followers in the mags that came in the older 645's had to use the steel followers that came in those mags. I ended up with a literal bag of those old 645 mags, and I seem to recall giving them to one of the members here many years ago. I suggested only using them for range mags, and to use the new production 8rd 3rd gen mags for duty or off-duty roles, as the new production mag bodies had improved feed lips.

The 8rd 4506 mags came with yellow followers for a while. A couple of our guys ended up ordering some 4566 mags online and ended up with older versions, which they started carrying on-duty (as extras) and using for the quals. While I don't recall any feeding issues in the ones I saw used, whenever I saw one I offered to replace it with a new/unissued 8rd round mag (black follower), just to make sure they were carrying the newest and most current mag/follower for a duty role.

I never saw the difference between those yeloow and black .45 followers by the naked eye (ditto with the yellow and then light blue 3rd gen .40 followers), but then I never got out my magnifying glass and took the time, either. I figured they had a reason for making the change, and just tried to stay current.

However, I do recall being told that sometimes when a color change occurred in a plastic part it might not mean a spec or materials change, but only a change of a vendor (so S&W could track parts received from different vendors).

A bit of trivia ...

When S&W initially went from the 14rd to the 15rd 3rd gen 9mm double stack mags, they changed the follower color (black to orange) to indicate the orange one had legs that allowed an extra round to fit in the mag body (and the new mag bodies got another witness hole).

However, during that transition time I happened to notice, strictly by accident, that the orange followers underwent a change in shape and profile, without a change of color. The change was one easily visible (if you were looking), with the middle of the follower going from a rounded "hump" back to the curved "wall" that positioned the top round (like in the black followers). I've still got a couple examples of each. Both worked fine in the duty guns, with the ammo we were using, and we were never told to replace the first one with the other, even though they looked different. Go figure.
 
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Thanks, I'll try Brownells when I can cut some cash loose.
Dunno how many mags I have, probably about 4, if I can find 'em.
Probably not a bad idea to pick up a couple new ones.

I suppose it's possible the gun might be fired again someday. :)
Denis
 
A couple thoughts.

First, a while back I noticed on one parts vendor website that they were apparently selling bright "stainless" colored factory trigger play springs. FWIW, back when as the factory was finishing fine-tuning the FBI guns, they developed a bright & shiny, plain colored spring which was supposedly stronger than the copper colored springs. I never learned the alloy used to make it. Supposedly, it kept its tension better and better addressed the "trigger click" in the FBI's 10mm guns, and had been created for their guns. It wasn't a normal stock part.

The interesting part ...

It didn't have a part number, and the LE contacts and parts guys with whom I talked didn't even know it existed. (I asked a couple of them.) I only found out about it (and saw one) when attending an armorer class hosted by another S&W armorer at another agency, who was pretty senior to me. He gave me a name and a number to call at the factory. I called and left a message. When I got a return call, the first question I was asked was where and how I'd learned of the spring's existence. :D

I told him (of course). He chuckled and asked me how many I wanted. Let's just say I got enough to replace the springs in my own 9, .40 & .45 guns, and some guns belonging to a couple friends and family. ;)

Anyway, the picture of the springs I saw on some parts vendor website looked like the same spring (no copper color), and it wouldn't surprise me if when S&W was selling off a lot of their excess 3rd gen parts stock, that the remaining supply of those older trigger play springs got pulled out from whatever desk they'd been kept, and they were sold off, too.

Now, also bear in mind that the trigger play spring only reduces the single action "slop" of the reset/cocked trigger, and has even been removed from some guns (like those of the original CHP 4006's, after a while). The last contract for the CHP 4006TSW's were even produced, at their request, without trigger play springs installed in the drawbars. The guns function without them, with or without the "click".

The "click", BTW, isn't limited to the 10/.45 guns, although I was told that something about the width of the 10/.45 frame and the standard drawbar seemed more likely to sometimes lend itself to it happening. I've also seen it occur in an occasional double stack 9, from time to time.

It's just the front tips of the trigger's ears slipping just up above the top edge of the drawbar's V-notch, instead of remaining within the tall notch, and then as the trigger ears drop back down into the notch, the "click" occurs as they pass back down over the top edge.

Oh yeah, when armorers are taught to replace the trigger play spring, they're usually taught to do it using a cheap $10 vise that clamps to the edge of the hosting agency's tables, the pillar file from the armorer kit (which has a safe edge), a ball peen hammer and a 1/16" pin punch. The drawbar is inverted between the vise jaws, to support the shoulder, and the 1/16" pin punch is used to drive the rivet out the top of the drawbar head. (Yes, sometimes the small pin punch might be bent using it in this manner.)

Once you've done it the right way, it's a relatively simple task. The trick is not to lose the new rivet during the process :confused: , and not to flatten it overly much (but just enough to hold the spring base flat and secure). It also helps to make sure the spring is pointed the right direction :eek: , and the inverted drawbar head is kept flat on the top safe edge of the file while lightly whacking on the rivet to secure it. ;)

Nice pics BMCM. ;)



It was your brief explanation of this in another post awhile back that allowed me to do it with ease. I got the parts from Midway. It’s extremely basic and took 10 minutes total. This advice and tutorials from pros like you and BMCM is much appreciated, and mostly why I joined this forum


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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Probably replaced 500 of those over the years, like 18DAI said, overzealous cleaning breaks a lot , also pressing the trigger in D/A mode flexes the spring, so if you dryfire it D/A alot, cause premature wear. Best to fire 1 D/A to 5 single action presses anyway. There is absolutely no problem using the gun once its broken, just a little slop in the trigger exactly like a beretta 92 has anyway. The only problem occurs when the little tab breaks off and gets into the triggerworks it can cause an issue.
We actually quit replacing them , unless the officer brought the spring and rivet in, as most smiths were private owned, we would inspect the bar remove the rivet and remaining piece of the spring, function check the gun, have the officer test fire it, mostly to relieve any anxiety on their part. My .02 bob
 
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